• Real estate investor Ludomir Wanot shares strategies anyone can use to find deals.
• He doesn't expect rates to drop in 2025 and encourages investors to lean into creative financing.
• Strategies such as subject-to financing can help investors avoid excessive borrowing costs.

Real-estate investor Ludomir Wanot wants other investors to know that there are deals to be found — you just have to know where to look.

"I love rentals. I love to see the physical, tangible assets," the Seattle-based millennial, who built his wealth wholesaling and now runs an AI company that helps lenders communicate with their clients, told Business Insider. "The proven, consistent strategy that's worked for me over the last seven years is sticking with the rental strategy of buying at a 30% discount to appraised value, making sure it cash flows at least $500 a month, and the property has to be in an opportunity zone — and I find these properties all the time."

He's acquired five units in Oregon in the last five months, which BI verified by looking at settlement statements.

"They're definitely out there," he said. "But sometimes they're not in Washington. Sometimes you have to look outside the state."

Wanot shared strategies that any investor can use to find deals, what types of properties he's looking for and what he's avoiding, and the simplest way for anyone to break into real estate investing in 2025.

Source off-market deals through wholesalers

One strategy for finding deals is to look for off-market properties — meaning, properties for sale that are not listed on the multiple listing service. While more difficult to find, they're typically easier to negotiate thanks to less competition.

There are various ways to find off-market properties, from real-estate auction websites to Craigslist to door-knocking. There's also wholesaling, which is when the person acting as the wholesaler finds and buys a discounted property and then sells the contract to another buyer.

Having done wholesaling for years, Wanot is aware that "there are wholesalers that consistently find discounted properties, and you can find those people on Facebook, through investment communities, they're all over."

He encourages investors to meet with wholesalers in their area and provide them with specific property criteria. If you're new to investing and haven't yet built a network, start by attending real-estate meet-ups or joining online real-estate communities.

As Wanot has learned, "Surround yourself with people who know more than you, ask questions, and build relationships with all different kinds of people you meet because you never know when you can work with them down the road."

Maximize cash flow with creative financing

Wanot doesn't expect rates to drop significantly in 2025. To get a property to generate positive cash flow in a higher-rate environment, he recommends leaning into creative financing.

"With interest rates remaining high, traditional financing methods may not yield the best returns," he said, but strategies such as seller financing, subject-to agreements, and private lending could help investors lock in better terms and avoid excessive borrowing costs.

Seller financing is when the buyer buys directly from the seller. The seller acts as the lender and provides a loan with agreed-upon terms about things like the interest rate and schedule of payments.

With subject-to financing, the buyer takes over the existing financing. The buyer doesn't actually assume the mortgage — it remains in the seller's name with the same terms — but will make mortgage payments on behalf of the seller.

Private money lending is another way to avoid a bank or traditional mortgage lender, and can be a "great way to avoid high interest rates and fees," said Wanot, adding: "I've had a lot of luck sourcing private money lenders through real estate Facebook groups."

Look for single-family homes that need work

"If you're a new investor, I'd definitely go after the distressed, small single-family homes," said Wanot.

Another tip is to look for property where the seller has "at least 50% equity in the home and has owned it for a long time," he said, as they might be more motivated to negotiate, especially if they're managing it from out-of-state. "I'm looking at owners who are over the age of 50 because the older owners tend to want to get out of the real estate space. It is so draining and requires a lot of physical and mental work."

Wanot owns multi-family properties but has found that they're more difficult to make the numbers work, at least in his current market.

"If you're a sophisticated investor, yes, small or large multi-families are good if you actually have run your numbers 1,000 times and you know exactly what you're looking for," he said. "There have been probably five properties that I was going to buy in the last year that I didn't pull the trigger on because the profit and loss statements that were given to me were significantly different from the actual bank statements."

A common mistake he's seen investors make, especially when it comes to these big multi-families, is just paying attention to the P&Ls, "which are made by the property managers or the owners of the property and show one story," he said. "They're not actually going through the bank statements and seeing what actual revenue is coming in and what expenses are going out."

He also advises avoiding the BRRRR — buy, rehab, rent, refinance, and repeat — method in a high-rate environment: "It hasn't really been working the last couple of years because the interest rates are so high right now, and so smart investors are moving away from that."

The easiest way to get started: Rent a portion of your home

For most new investors, the simplest and most risk-averse way to get started is "creating rentable units in their single-family home space," said Wanot, referring to a strategy known as "house hacking."

This requires owning a primary residence and converting a garage, basement, or even a bedroom into a rentable space. If you have a bigger budget and meet zoning requirements in your area, another option may be to build an ADU.

At a minimum, renting out a portion of your home will reduce your mortgage — and could even fully cover it. Lowering your monthly housing payment could then help you save up to buy a proper investment property.

Wanot's top advice heading into the new year, however, is to actually implement what you read about and learn. Taking action could be as small as joining a real estate community and networking.

"People are buying programs, they're going to the events, they're watching people come up onstage and talk about how wealthy they got through a particular strategy. But very few people actually implement anything they're being taught," he said.

"The day we actually stop listening to and reading all these stories, podcasts, and YouTube videos and actually apply ourselves is the day we're finally going to start seeing progress in our lives."

• One of the biggest parts of preparing for a job interview is running through practice questions.
• We asked recruiting pros for their top interview questions and how a candidate should answer them.
• Here's what they told us.

When you're preparing for a job interview, one of the first things you can do is research what previous candidates have shared about their own interviews with that employer. Some of the most helpful information to glean, if you can find it, is what interview questions you might expect to be asked.

To help job seekers who might not be able to find common questions asked by a specific company, we asked five recruiting professionals for their favorite questions to ask in job interviews.

They also broke down how candidates should answer and what the answers can reveal about them. Of course, the slate of questions asked in an interview can vary based on the recruiter's personal preferences, the role, and other factors — but these go-to questions from recruiters are a good place to start.

Here's a look at questions recruiters love to ask that they say can be particularly telling about a candidate.

'Tell me a time when you found a way to improve a process, made something more efficient, or otherwise introduced an improvement when you weren't asked to do so.'

Kyle Samuels, who spent 20 years in senior-level executive recruiting and is now CEO of executive search agency Creative Talent Endeavors, said he likes this question because it helps identify "proactive leaders who are willing to answer difficult questions and drive business results."

He recommends candidates use the STAR method — focusing on the situation, task, action, and result — to answer this question and really highlight their "initiative and drive."

"I'm also looking for candidates who can stand up to additional questioning well and describe specifics within each example or story they share when responding," he said.

He shared with us one example of how a STAR-formatted answer to this question might look:

• Situation: "Our SaaS solution isn't cutting it."
• Task: "I was assigned to fix the problem."
• Action: "I spoke to other CTOs to get recommendations, found a final list of five, and then evaluated them against the incumbent so we could make the right hiring decision."
• Result: Explain the end result and what happened after taking the actions described.

'Tell me about a time when something went terribly wrong with a project.'

This question shows a candidate's "ability to take responsibility for mistakes, solve problems, communicate effectively, and collaborate with others," said Lauren Monroe, who leads the creative practice group at Aquent, a staffing agency for creative, marketing, and design roles.

An ideal answer would "name the specific challenge faced, acknowledge the mistakes made, and identify the actions taken, lessons learned, and solutions implemented to solve the problem," she added.

'What key elements need to be in your next role, and what would be a dealbreaker for you?'

Amri Celeste, a recruitment manager and interview coach, likes this question because it gets at "what a candidate is really looking for in a role and whether the role we're discussing matches what they expect in their next role."

"It's also an opportunity to open up a more honest dialogue about their values, work style, and career goals, which helps me learn about not only how well they suit the role, but also how well they might suit the team and management style of the manager," she said.

'Tell me about yourself.'

It's a tried-and-true interview question, and Andrew Fennell, a former corporate recruiter and the founder of the résumé-builder website StandOut CV, leans on it to set the tone in interviews.

"After introducing myself and explaining how I've arrived to the point of this interview, I ask the candidate to do the same," he said.

"It relaxes the atmosphere a bit, makes it a bit more conversational, and allows the candidate to give a well-rounded summary of their experience and skills," he added.

'Tell me about the greatest impact you made at a company and what helped you achieve that impact.'

Tessa White, a former head of HR, is the CEO of The Job Doctor and the author of "The Unspoken Truths for Career Success."

Besides asking about a candidate's achievements, White also tries to gauge their ability to problem-solve by asking questions about challenges they've encountered in the past.

She'll ask, for example, "Tell me about a time you were at odds with someone or a department and you were able to successfully move through it."

Other times, she might say, "Tell me about a time when an initiative or project you were leading wasn't going the way you hoped. How did you handle it and what is your philosophy for addressing obstacles?"

For all of these questions, she said the ideal answer should be "authentic and real." If it's not, a recruiter can "sniff it a mile away," she said.

"I'm not looking for the answer you think I want to hear," she said. "I'm looking to see an imperfect person that has insight into their strengths as well as someone who understands how to learn from previous mistakes."

• Elon Musk fixes the biggest problems at his companies every week, Marc Andreessen says.
• Musk quickly tackles pressing issues by working directly with engineers and coders, the VC said.
• The Tesla and SpaceX CEO's method attracts great talent and inspires deep loyalty, Andreessen said.

Elon Musk has built some of the world's most valuable companies, from Tesla to SpaceX. A key driver of his success is a relentless focus on solving problems fast, often by working directly with the engineers or coders who've gotten stuck, Marc Andreessen says.

The legendary venture capitalist shared his insights from working closely with Musk on X, xAI, and SpaceX during a recent episode of the "Modern Wisdom" podcast.

Unlike many CEOs, Musk is devoted to understanding every aspect of his businesses, the Andreessen Horowitz cofounder and general partner said. He's "in the trenches and talking directly to the people who do the work," and acting as the "lead problem solver in the organization."

Musk's businesses include Tesla, SpaceX, Neuralink, xAI, The Boring Company, and X — formerly Twitter. Andreessen said that every week at each of his companies, Musk "identifies the biggest problem that the company is having that week and he fixes it. And then he does that every week for 52 weeks in a row. And then each of his companies has solved the 52 biggest problems that year, in that year."

In contrast, the bosses of most large corporations spend months or years holding meetings, watching presentations, and conducting legal and compliance reviews before they address their most pressing issues, Andreessen told host Chris Williamson.

Musk sees his businesses almost like assembly lines, and he focuses on removing bottlenecks and speeding up the conveyer belt a little more every week, the billionaire VC and Netscape cofounder said.

His laser focus on fixing problems attracts exceptionally talented people to his companies who want to work extremely hard and meet exacting standards, fueling further success for his businesses, Andreessen said.

Straight to the source

When Musk spots a bottleneck, he cuts through the layers of management to talk to the people actually working on the line or writing the code, Andreessen said.

"So he's not asking the VP of engineering to ask the director of engineering to ask the manager to ask the individual contributor to write a report that's to be reviewed in three weeks," the early-stage investor said. "He would throw them all out of the window."

Andreessen said Musk's approach of finding the person grappling with a particular issue, and then working with them to solve it, inspires deep loyalty.

The person thinks "if I'm up against a problem I don't know how to solve, freaking Elon Musk is going to show up in his Gulfstream, and he's going to sit with me overnight in front of the keyboard, or in front of the manufacturing line, and he's going to help me figure this out," the tech guru said.

Musk's strategy of tackling problem after problem has a "catalytic, multiplicative effect" that helps his businesses power ahead of rivals, Andreessen added.

In the past, Musk has been criticized for spreading himself too thin and not allocating enough time, energy, and resources to any one business like Tesla.

The world's wealthiest man has also said at points that he's working too hard and juggling too much, and his "hardcore" management style has been slammed as brutal and mercurial.

But in terms of technical progress and value generation, Musk's approach of getting involved quickly to fix things appears to be paying off.

• Michael Dell says humor is vital and workers need to laugh and play and relax sometimes.
• The Dell Technologies chief said people shouldn't always listen to their parents' advice.
• Dell said he goes to sleep early, works out around dawn, and enjoys Texas barbecue.

Laugh and play pranks, balance work with downtime, and don't always listen to your parents' advice, Michael Dell says.

The Dell Technologies founder and CEO shared the colorful life advice during a recent episode of the "In Good Company" podcast. Dell, 59, ranked 13th on the Bloomberg Billionaires Index with a $115 billion fortune at Thursday's close.

The personal-computing pioneer said humor plays a key role at his company.

"If you can't laugh, joke around, play tricks on people, you're doing it wrong, right?" he said. "You have to be able to laugh at yourself."

Dell said he toiled tirelessly as a young man to build his company, which generated $88 billion of revenue last year. But he warned against overworking and burnout.

"I learned a long time ago that there's a diminishing return to the number of hours worked in any given day, " he said. "And if you're going to do something for a long time, you better find the [right mixture of] working and playing and relaxing."

Dell said he goes to bed at about 8:30 or 9 p.m. each night and wakes up around 4 or 5 a.m. to exercise.

"You won't find me at the nightcap," he said. "I'll be asleep."

Barbecue and bad advice

The Texan businessman also voiced his love for one of his home state's delicacies, even if he doesn't prepare it himself.

"I believe in the theory of labor specialization, so I personally am not cooking a lot of barbecue, but I'm definitely eating barbecue," he said.

Dell also offered some general advice for young people: "Experiment, take risks, fail, find difficult problems, do something valuable, don't be afraid, and, you know, be bold."

He recalled his parents encouraging him to become a doctor and urging him to set aside his passion for building computers. On the other hand, he remembered his mother telling him and his two brothers when they were little to "play nice but win," which became his company's guiding philosophy and the title of his 2021 book.

"Well, yeah, your parents aren't always right, but they're not always wrong either," he said, adding people's "mileage may vary on the parents."

• Many executives say they've learned valuable lessons on business from books.
• Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Bill Gates are no exception.
• Here are 20 books they've said taught them a lot about business, leadership, and the forces shaping our world.

You learn by doing — but you can also learn a lot by reading.

Many influential business figures, including Tesla CEO Elon Musk, Amazon cofounder Jeff Bezos, and Microsoft cofounder Bill Gates say they've learned some of the most important lessons in their lives from books.

They've recommended countless books over the years that they credit with strengthening their business acumen and shaping their worldviews.

Here are 20 books recommended by Musk, Bezos, and Gates to add to your reading list:

Jeff Bezos

Some of Bezos' favorite books were instrumental to the creation of products and services like the Kindle and Amazon Web Services.

"The Innovator's Solution"

This book on innovation explains how companies can become disruptors. It's one of three books Bezos made his top executives read one summer to map out Amazon's trajectory.

"The Goal: A Process of Ongoing Improvement"

Also on that list was "The Goal," in which Eliyahu M. Goldratt and Jeff Cox examine the theory of constraints from a management perspective.

Buy it here >>

"The Effective Executive"

The final book on Bezos' reading list for senior managers, "The Effective Executive" lays out habits of successful executives, like time management and effective decision-making.

"Built to Last: Successful Habits of Visionary Companies"

This book draws on six years of research from the Stanford University Graduate School of Business that looks into what separates exceptional companies from their competitors. Bezos has said it's his "favorite business book."

Buy it here >>

"The Remains of the Day"

This Kazuo Ishiguro novel tells of an English butler in wartime England who begins to question his lifelong loyalty to his employer while on a vacation.

Bezos has said of the book, "Before reading it, I didn't think a perfect novel was possible."

Buy it here >>

"Lean Thinking: Banish Waste and Create Wealth in Your Corporation"

This book imparts lessons about improving efficiency based on case studies of lean companies across various industries.

Buy it here >>

Elon Musk

The Tesla CEO has recommended several AI books, sci-fi novels, and biographies over the years.

"What We Owe the Future"

One of Musk's most recent picks, this book tackles longtermism, which its author defines as "the view that positively affecting the long-run future is a key moral priority of our time." Musk says the book is a "close match" for his philosophy.

"Superintelligence: Paths, Dangers, Strategies"

Musk has also recommended several books on artificial intelligence, including this one, which considers questions about the future of intelligent life in a world where machines might become smarter than people.

Buy it here >>

"Our Final Invention: Artificial Intelligence and the End of the Human Era"

On the subject of AI, Musk said in a 2014 tweet that this book, which examines its risks and potential, is also "worth reading."

Buy it here >>

"Life 3.0: Being Human in the Age of Artificial Intelligence"

In this book, MIT professor Max Tegmark writes about ensuring artificial intelligence and technological progress remain beneficial for human life in the future.

"Zero to One: Notes on Startups, or How to Build the Future"

Peter Thiel shares lessons he learned founding companies like PayPal and Palantir in this book.

Musk has said of the book, "Thiel has built multiple breakthrough companies, and Zero to One shows how."

Buy it here >>

"Einstein: His Life and Universe"

Musk's reading list isn't without biographies, including this Walter Isaacson book on Albert Einstein as well as Isaacon's biography of Benjamin Franklin. Isaacson more recently published a biography of Musk himself.

Buy it here >>

Bill Gates

The Microsoft cofounder usually publishes two lists each year, one in the summer and one at year's end, of his book recommendations.

"How the World Really Works"

In his 2022 summer reading list, Gates highlighted this work by Vaclav Smil that explores the fundamental forces underlying today's world, including matters like energy production and globalization.

"If you want a brief but thorough education in numeric thinking about many of the fundamental forces that shape human life, this is the book to read," Gates said of the book.

"Why We're Polarized"

Ezra Klein argues that the American political system has became polarized around identity to dangerous effect in this book, also on Gates' summer reading list in 2022, that Gates calls "a fascinating look at human psychology."

"Business Adventures: Twelve Classic Tales from the World of Wall Street"

Gates has said this is "the best business book I've ever read." It compiles 12 articles that originally appeared in The New Yorker about moments of success and failure at companies like General Electric and Xerox.

Buy it here >>

"Factfulness: Ten Reasons We're Wrong About the World—and Why Things Are Better Than You Think"

This book investigates the thinking patterns and tendencies that distort people's perceptions of the world. Gates has called it "one of the most educational books I've ever read."

Buy it here >>

"Origin Story: A Big History of Everything"

David Christian takes on the history of our universe, from the Big Bang to mass globalization, in this book.

Buy it here >>

"The Sixth Extinction: An Unnatural History"

Elizabeth Kolbert plumbs the history of Earth's mass extinctions in this book, including a sixth extinction, which some scientists warn is already underway.

Buy it here >>

"The Myth of the Strong Leader: Political Leadership in the Modern Age"

This Archie Brown book examines political leadership throughout the 20th century.

Buy it here >>

"The Coming Wave"

One of Gates' most recent book picks comes from the head of Microsoft AI.

Mustafa Suleyman's "The Coming Wave" explores the opportunities and risks posed by scientific breakthroughs like AI and gene editing.

"If you want to understand the rise of AI, this is the best book to read," Gates wrote of the book.

• Some high-profile CEOs like Mark Zuckerberg or Elon Musk have multimillion-dollar security details.
• Health insurance companies, by contrast, don't appear to spend as much on executive protection.
• The amount public companies allocate toward executive security and private travel varies widely.

The death of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson last week has brought a new level of attention to the question of executive protection.

Thompson's shooting outside a hotel in New York also highlights that executives who aren't as high-profile as someone like Elon Musk may not always have bodyguards with them.

That level of monitoring can be expensive, and the amount companies pay for executive security varies widely.

On the high end, Musk and other CEOs including Meta's Mark Zuckerberg, Alphabet's Sundar Pichai, and Salesforce's Marc Benioff are known for having multimillion-dollar security packages.

Others, including JPMorgan Chase's Jamie Dimon, Amazon's Andy Jassy, and Apple's Tim Cook, have more modest protection services worth hundreds of thousands of dollars — amounts that can further increase when factoring in costs associated with the use of private planes, a common CEO perk tied to security considerations.

Health insurance companies, including UnitedHealth Group, don't appear to spend as much on executive protection as some of the Big Tech giants.

However, the health insurance industry isn't an outlier. Companies in other fields, like retail, also have relatively modest security-specific compensation.

Walmart CEO Doug McMillon and McDonald's CEO Chris Kempczinski, for example, appear to have individual security expenses of less than $25,000 for 2023, according to company filings. When including the use of private aircraft, Walmart paid $192,848 for McMillon's personal use of the company jet, while McDonald's paid $319,301 for Kempczinski's usage in 2023.

Company-paid security costs are typically disclosed in annual corporate filings known as proxy statements. The documents include a breakdown of the salary, benefits, bonuses, and other perks to provide a dollar value of top executives' total compensation package, which must be approved by the board and shareholders.

Security services paid for by the company for the benefit of an individual executive are typically included in a category called "Other Compensation" along with perks like personal corporate jet usage, 401(k) matching, or tax preparation services. It's possible that some security costs may not be reported in proxy statements, particularly if they were paid for by the executives themselves and not reimbursed.

UnitedHealth Group's filings don't specify any personal security costs for Thompson last year

It's not clear if Thompson had a security detail with him on the day of his death. Video footage obtained by the New York City Police Department appears to show him walking alone on his way into an "investor day" event in Manhattan.

Although he was CEO of UnitedHealthcare, Thompson was also an executive vice president of UnitedHealth Group, for which he received $21,187 in other compensation in 2023. That amount represented $14,850 in 401(k) matching and $6,337 in health insurance premiums, with no amount indicated for personal security.

The company has yet to release its annual proxy statement outlining 2024 expenses.

Looking further up the corporate ladder, Thompson's boss, UHG CEO Andrew Witty, also did not receive payment for personal security as part of his 2023 compensation package. However, the company did make corporate aircraft available for his use.

"Witty is required for personal security reasons to use corporate aircraft for all business travel and is encouraged to use corporate aircraft for all personal travel," the proxy statement says, adding that Witty did not make personal use of the company plane in 2023.

A UHG spokesperson told BI the company is "partnering with local law enforcement to ensure a safe work environment and reinforce security guidelines and building access policies."

CVS, which owns Aetna, does not disclose the compensation of Aetna's president. However, CVS did provide its former CEO Karen Lynch with $44,148 for "personal protection" in 2023, as well as $243,281 for personal use of the company jet and $106,086 for personal use of a company car. A CVS spokesperson declined to comment.

Cigna CEO David Cordani received $310,437 in "other compensation" in 2023, largely constituted of $178,704 in personal travel on the company aircraft. Roughly $95,000 in other costs were provided for residential security system monitoring and maintenance, as well as expanded personal liability coverage.

Proxy statements for Humana and Elevance (owner of Anthem) did not specify personal security costs, while Kaiser Permanente is a nonprofit and not subject to the same reporting requirements.

Musk-level security can cost millions

Former Secret Service agent Joseph LaSorsa, who now runs the private security firm LaSorsa & Associates, previously told BI that an around-the-clock detail can cost $100,000 a month and isn't always enough to stop a motivated attacker.

At those rates, the annual cost of protection could balloon to $1.2 million — comparable to the base salaries of UnitedHealth's executive officers.

In other words, company-provided personal security can be an expensive proposition, and typically reserved only for a small number of top leaders. Different executives may also have their own personal preference for the level of security they travel with.

"Protection is very much driven on what a executive really wants," said John Orloff, a former US Secret Service agent who now leads security risk consulting at Jensen Hughes.

Orloff told Business Insider that his firm typically works with corporate security departments to develop their executive protection strategies in response to relevant threats.

Musk, the world's wealthiest person, has spoken out about personal security concerns in recent years. He told Tesla shareholders at the annual shareholder meeting that "two homicidal maniacs" had threatened to kill him and things were "getting a little crazy these days."

Filings show Tesla paid a Musk-owned personal security company $2.4 million to protect him in 2023. However, the agreement is not structured as compensation for his services as CEO and is unusual among public companies (Tesla is fighting to reinstate Musk's 2018 compensation package after a Delaware judge ruled against it for the second time).

Musk travels with multiple bodyguards — sometimes as many as 20, according to a recent report. Employees at X, formerly Twitter, reported seeing his security follow him into the bathrooms at the company's headquarters.

While executives at health insurance companies may not be as recognizable as someone like Musk or Zuckerberg, Thompson's death could lead board members and CEOs to review executive protection costs in a different light. The matter could feature more prominently as compensation committees draft proposals for their companies' future annual meetings.

• The downfall of Assad has threatened Russia's military presence in Syria along with its wider strategic objectives.
• Russia's bases in Syria made it a major diplomatic player in the Middle East.
• The bases were also crucial for its activities in Africa.

The fall of Bashar Assad has thrown Russia's military presence in Syria into question. It also poses a threat to Russia's ability to project power throughout the Middle East and beyond.

On Sunday, Syrian rebels, led by the Islamist group Hayat Tahrir Al-Sham, overthrew Syria's longtime autocratic ruler.

It followed a dizzying two-week campaign that caught the world off guard and many are now trying to work out what will come next for the country.

Russia has been a close ally of Syria and has leases on two military bases in the country, giving it a strategic foothold in the Middle East.

"It hits them hard," Edmund Fitton-Brown, a senior advisor to the Counter Extremism Project, said of Russia.

He added: "Syria has been their most reliable Arab ally."

A springboard to power

In 2017, Syria granted Russia a 49-year lease on the Hmeimim air base and the Tartus naval base, in return for military assistance.

Russia has used the bases to project power in the Mediterranean and into Africa, and as a counter to NATO's southern flank.

"These bases are the most important bases outside the direct sphere of Russian influence," Andreas Krieg, a Gulf specialist at the Institute of Middle Eastern Studies at King's College London, told Business Insider.

Ann Marie Dailey, a geopolitical strategist at RAND, told BI that despite its massive landmass, Russia "doesn't have great geography for power projection."

"It doesn't have warm water ports that have direct access to the oceans," she added. "And so having a port in the Mediterranean is incredibly strategically useful."

Hmeimim, meanwhile, gives Russia a refueling base and overflight access throughout the Middle East and on to Africa, she said.

On Sunday, Ukrainian military intelligence said that Russia had pulled two ships from Tartus, and had transferred weapons from Hmeimim.

BI was unable to independently verify the report.

But satellite images captured by Planet Labs PBC show Russian warships that had been seen in Tartus earlier this month were gone as of Monday.

Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov said Russia intended to have serious discussions with future Syrian authorities about access to the bases, but that it is too soon for now.

The potential loss of influence in Syria is not just about state power. The bases have also allowed support for the activities of the Russian paramilitary group Wagner.

"If you look at the Wagner footprint in Africa, you can tell that it's been enabled by the fact that they have that access in Syria to support those operations," said Dailey.

According to the Institute for the Study of War, losing the bases in Syria will "immediately" interrupt Wagner's rotation and resupply efforts.

Russia's ambitions for global leadership

Russia's involvement in Syria is a legacy of the Soviet era when the USSR traditionally maintained strong ties with other socialist states.

Russia propped up the Assad regime for more than a decade, notably sending aid during the 2011 Arab Spring, and troops and weapons to help counter the uprising in 2015.

Russian President Vladimir Putin had many reasons to stick his neck out for Assad.

"By backing Assad, Russia positioned itself as an indispensable player in regional politics, thereby increasing its diplomatic leverage," said Ali Bilgic, a professor in international relations and Middle East politics at the UK's Loughborough University.

But the huge cost of invading Ukraine appears to have forced Russia to choose between the two.

It "really speaks to how stretched thin Russian forces are," according to Dailey.

Putin has based Russia's international stature on the idea it can play a major role in different parts of the world, said Cristian Nitoiu, a Russia-focused lecturer in diplomacy and foreign affairs, also at Loughborough University.

Yet Putin's refusal to help Assad this time "basically shows that Russia was unable to support one of its long-lasting friends," Nitoiu said.

"The events in Syria can be seen as a sort of strategic failure on the part of Russia, and the optics look really bad," he added.

An uncertain future

In a statement on Sunday, Russia's foreign ministry said it was maintaining contact with "all" Syrian opposition groups, adding that while Russia's Syrian bases are on high alert, there's no serious threat to their security at the moment.

Russia has called Hayat Tahrir Al-Sham a terror group — so the fact that they are communicating with rebel groups now "demonstrates the importance of these bases," Dailey said.

HTS is also designated a terror group by the US and the UN.

What the US does regarding events in Syria will also be pivotal to what sort of foothold Russia can maintain, Loughborough University's Bilgic said.

On Saturday, President-elect Donald Trump posted on Truth Social: "THIS IS NOT OUR FIGHT. LET IT PLAY OUT. DO NOT GET INVOLVED!"

Should the US withdraw all involvement, Russia could exploit any ensuing power vacuum. But "this scenario appears improbable," Bilgic said.

In fact, diminishing Russian influence in Syria is a huge strategic draw for the US, he said, adding that there is also a concern that a new Russia-backed government could give room to ISIS, as well as threats to Israeli security.

Russia's presence in Syria has also helped it shape its objectives in energy markets, Bilgic said.

"Economically, the Tartus base played a role in Russia's energy strategy, helping to counter competing projects like the Qatar-Turkey pipeline," he said.

A grim reminder

What has happened in Syria in recent days may lead to some sleepless nights in Russia.

"I think it will rattle some folks in the Kremlin to see just how quickly Russia's military had to withdraw," Dailey said.

Assad's fall may also be a grim reminder for those in power in Russia of the necessity of crushing domestic resistance quickly, she said.

"Anyone in the Kremlin, because they've studied Russian history, knows that an autocratic regime can crumble very quickly."

YYou've just been added to a meeting. It's late afternoon, late in the week, and someone is presenting a deck. Geez, here we go. The presenter reads words that you can also read from a bulleted list on a lightly decorated page projected before you. Next slide. Because you've seen hundreds of PowerPoint presentations since your sixth-grade science-fair days, you instinctively know this one's going to take the full hour. Eyes glaze over, yawns are stifled. Next slide. The presenter attempts to play an embedded video, but the audio doesn't work. "You get the idea" though. Next slide.

Nearly four decades after the launch of PowerPoint, the slide deck remains one of the most dominant forces shaping how we think — and don't think — about our work. From startup pitches to Pentagon procurement timetables, from quarterly board meetings to annual harassment trainings, billions of presentations are given each year in a single rigid, information-squishing format, on PowerPoint or its imitators Keynote, Google Slides, or now Figma Slides. Humanity continues to cram compelling and vital information into single-idea slides, strip these ideas of context, and read them aloud among a flurry of GIFs, charts, and animated wipes and swipes. Rarely does the deck — which by design dictates a one-sided style of conversation — elicit robust questions from or conversation with the audience. We are constantly pitching our bosses, their bosses, investors, and each other via a one-size rhetorical tool that doesn't really fit all.

But some are finally thinking outside the deck. Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Sundar Pichai, and military top brass have been bad-mouthing and even banning slide presentations from meetings, instead favoring memos or even old-fashioned, visual-aid-free, raw-dogged discussion. Rippling, which makes HR and payroll software, has done the impossible: complete a funding round (a $45 million Series A) without a deck. Several startups, including one from Edward Norton — yes, the actor — have launched alternatives to the deck. It appears that even three Academy Award nominations cannot spare one's life from the stultifying ubiquity of decks, and Norton and his two cofounders at Zeck are on a mission to vanquish it.

Is the deck in jeopardy? Are we at last approaching a day when "this meeting could have been an email" lives alongside "this meeting could have gone without a deck"? Next slide.

For most of the 20th century, workplace meetings were typically small and informal discussions with a few colleagues. By the 1980s, the computer revolution was generating loads more information for every business to digest and act on. This meant more and bigger meetings across departments, which meant more presentations, which usually meant slide projectors. But those presentations were clunky, finicky, and laborious to make.

Then, in the mid-'80s, an ailing software startup called Forethought developed a first-of-its-kind graphics program in which computer users could string together a series of slides. Originally called Presenter, it was released in April 1987, as PowerPoint. Microsoft immediately saw its world-changing potential, buying Forethought just four months later for $14 million. For one thousandth of the nearly $14 billion the company has invested in OpenAI, Microsoft acquired a program that remains arguably more consequential to how businesses operate. By 1993, Microsoft was raking in $100 million from PowerPoint sales a year; by 2003, $1 billion. Microsoft estimated that 30 million PowerPoint presentations were being made every day.

Decks have no shortage of zealots, including my former boss. When I worked at BarkBox, Nick Cogan, a vice president of creative, always had us making decks — not just for big retail pitches but for every little task. Product planning, style guide, whatever it was, we'd make a deck. I maybe want him to apologize for all the deck wrangling, but he laughs and doesn't give an inch defending them, which, as a former animator, he loves for their storytelling capabilities. "'Look at this, not us' can be essential when presenting," he says. He describes the perfect presentation as both a "useful crutch" and a "little kids' storybook," where he can walk the great and mighty decision-makers through storytime instead of business time.

Christina Farr, a healthtech director and investor who wrote a book about storytelling in business, agrees, arguing that the deck actually draws its power from its ubiquity. Because people are used to both writing and receiving decks, "people know what the story should sound like," and the expected rhythms and beats of a PowerPoint presentation "are already baked in." But it's not just an emotional expectation, she says — it's also a formal one: "If you're raising money, in 2024, you have to have a deck. Everybody expects you to do it."

True, but there's also been no shortage of deck denigrators. In 2003, the media theorist Edward Tufte published "The Cognitive Style of PowerPoint," which remains one of the most deliciously damning indictments of a software program ever written. Over several thousand words, Tufte flambés PowerPoint, and "slideware" in general, for "making us stupid, degrading the quality and credibility of our communication, turning us into bores, wasting our colleagues' time." Though PowerPoint was developed and even celebrated as a "cure for the presentation jitters," Tufte maligns it as overly oriented toward the presenter, leaving little room for the listener to chime in or even actively listen. Tufte even goes so far as to blame PowerPoint's "poverty of content" and its "foreshortening of evidence and thought" for the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster.

The jeremiad had many admirers, including Jeff Bezos. Inspired by Tufte, the Amazon CEO in June 2004 banned PowerPoint from executive meetings. The book "Working Backwards: Insights, Stories, and Secrets from Inside Amazon" describes Bezos as finding slide decks "frustrating, inefficient, error-prone," with a stiff format that "made it difficult to evaluate actual progress." In its place the company developed what's become known as the Amazon Six-Pager: a detailed memo outlining — in narrative prose, not bullet points — the conversations and business problems that have surfaced the need for a meeting. In a deck, information takes a back seat to form and format; the memo, in contrast, forces the presenter to embody a Joan Didion axiom: "I don't know what I think until I write it down." Attendees read the six-pager before the meeting, so everyone can enter the meeting informed and be held accountable for the decisions made out of the discussion.

"I hate the way people use slide presentations instead of thinking," Steve Jobs once opined, adding that "people who know what they're talking about don't need PowerPoint." Even Steve Ballmer, who sits atop literal millions and owns the Los Angeles Clippers in part because of PowerPoint money, maligned decks while he was CEO of Microsoft. "I don't think it's efficient," he said in 2011, adding, "Most meetings nowadays, you send me the materials and I read them in advance. And I can come in and say: 'I've got the following four questions. Please don't present the deck.'" Over the years, many members of the US military have cast aspersions toward what they call "death by PowerPoint."

"The incentive structures for a slide deck are all bad," says Aviv Gilboa, the president of Skylight, a consumer tech company known for its digital picture frames and calendars. To Gilboa, who worked at Amazon for four years, decks aren't just boring, they're antithetical to many ways we think and work. The format of a single slide is inherently low-information: When you're pitching, you're persuading, and so you can fit only one idea per slide, often forcing you to leave some good ideas behind.

Gilboa says decks also help presenters feel good without forcing them to engage with their decisions. Decks help reinforce this perception of assurance, what Gilboa calls "the smoke and mirrors of how we got to this choice." As I sat at BarkBox making decks every which way for every little business problem, I felt like a purveyor of both smoke and mirrors, no matter what my boss said about storytelling.

Many of our workplace problems have evident solutions made possible by software — for example, Google Docs, a miracle program that replaced back-and-forth documents and version control with fluid, collaborative workflow. But like many in the PowerPoint mines, I'm not sure what alternative could possibly replace slides at scale.

Zeck was born in 2022 out of its cofounders' rage at decks, especially in board meetings. "At our prior companies, the shortest deck we ever sent was 134 pages," Zeck's cofounder Robert Wolfe tells me, adding that "there was nothing more stressful" about preparing for those meetings. He says that at CrowdRise, the company he ran with his brother Jeffrey and Edward Norton, they'd stop all other work for 100 hours before every board meeting in order to write and build the quarterly decks they hated enough to found Zeck. In a nod to Norton, Wolfe integrated a "Fight Club" reference into the origin story on Zeck's website: "The meeting I just sat through was like the scene in Fight Club where you punch yourself in the face over and over."

To Wolfe, the deck model "literally creates antagonism" — everyone becomes an editor with a red pen, the deck presenting endless entry points for criticism. In the military or an everyday office, grunts and junior designers hate working on PowerPoints, tweaking pixels and making rounds of edits that drive everyone crazy, because in PowerPoint you're often not working on the idea, but only on the presentation of the idea.

Zeck proposes that the solution to the deck is a collaborative website. A Zeck site feels a bit like a Notion site but with tweaks that work well for the boardroom — it gives everyone edit access, is encrypted, can be personalized, and offers links so that your chief financial officer or finance team can access full reports and charts and important information. It is a revelation to not have that information simplified in a slide in a meeting where everyone has to sit through everything. And in Zeck's pitch I find a great clarity equaled so far only by Tufte himself: When we remove the awful slide deck, once again "the meeting can be a meeting." So far, Zeck counts among its clients Hard Rock Hotel & Casino, furniture maker Floyd, and the rocket startup Phantom Space Corporation.

While Zeck is unlikely to supplant PowerPoint any time soon, Wolfe thinks people are finally rebelling against the idea "that you only have Office and all the tools that go with it, or a Google Drive and all the tools that go with it." He makes a brazen prediction: "I would be shocked if in 18 months or five years people are still using flat slides for meetings that should be collaborative."

We aren't yet letting go of decks in business, but we've let them hop the fence into our wider culture, both celebrating and undermining their repressive formality and ubiquity. The post-irony generations are throwing "PowerPoint parties," and some singles, sick of dating apps, are using PowerPoint to make their cases as mates. A 2021 episode of the Bravo reality show "Summer House" featured a subplot built around a romantic gesture delivered via PowerPoint. For some, slides may be a love language. There are even famous decks now, like this 300-pager in which a hedge-fund excoriated Olive Garden's business practices, or, my favorite, Jennifer Egan's PowerPoint chapter from her 2010 Pulitzer Prize-winning novel, "A Visit from the Goon Squad."

Egan tells me she got a crash course in the program from her business-world sister, who "thinks in PowerPoint." The formal experiment of a PowerPoint chapter was exciting, though the "cold, corporate vibe" was perhaps incompatible with real, genuine emotion and the stuff contained in great novels. She suggests this tension gives the finished chapter — "Great Rock and Roll Pauses," the 12-year-old protagonist Alison Blake's account of her autistic brother's favorite pauses in classic rock songs interspersed with descriptions of their mom and dad coming and going, fighting and reflecting — its power. The chapter delivers earnest emotion without being schlocky, and is brave and hilarious without being corny. Egan says she isn't typically this type of writer, but the PowerPoint format gave her the ability to tell "this very sweet story in a cold holder."

Perhaps the PowerPoint parties and Egan have it right and we should let PowerPoint do what it does best: tell stories. For Egan, a deck arguably won a Pulitzer. For NASA, a deck arguably killed astronauts. In the big middle between those outcomes, we're still deciding whether a story is always what's necessary — and what to do about decks.

Matt Alston's writing has appeared in Wired, Rolling Stone, Playboy, and Believer. He trained as a civil engineer, and now works as a copywriter in tech. He lives in Maine with his wife and daughter.

• Alicia Pittman, BCG's global people-team chair, is a member of BI's Workforce Innovation board.
• She says building a company culture with opportunities for two-way learning and conversation is key.
• This article is part of "Workforce Innovation," a series exploring the forces shaping enterprise transformation.

Alicia Pittman, the global people-team chair at BCG, has been at the consulting firm for nearly 20 years. It's a testament, she said, to the company's culture.

"It's a place built to make talent do things that they didn't even know they could do," Pittman said. "I'm included in that. I love the learning that comes with it."

Pittman said one aspect of leadership development she's focused on is ethical practices. "We teach and train our people to understand how small choices that don't seem like major ethical choices matter," she said. "The responsibility is to show up with high ethics in everything that you do and think about the bigger picture of how you do things."

She said the firm had implemented programming through partnerships to help the company's leaders navigate the need to drive innovation ethically: "It's a place that we continue to invest because it's quite important for us."

The following is edited for length and clarity.

Where is BCG on the adoption curve of artificial intelligence, and what do you want to see in 2025?

I am excited about how BCG is driving change and grabbing the reins on generative AI. Gen AI is important to our clients, industry, and people.

We have a suite of tools, some of which we developed internally and some that are available off the shelf, that we've made available to all of our staff. Nearly everyone is a user to some degree.

What we're focused on now is moving from casual use to what we refer to as habitual use. It's habitual use that gets the value so that you can change how work gets done, based on the frequency, sophistication, and depth to which they use the tools.

We have a lot of enablement resources for our people, both as individuals and as teams, to make sure that we're moving up that habitual usage curve as quickly as we can. A firm like BCG is under pressure to stay on top of things because its clients look to us.

So how do you strike that balance and not go so fast that you risk leaving some of your people behind? We have an enablement network of more than a thousand people who are there to help both individuals and teams adopt gen AI. It's in all of our core curriculums.

Just this fall, we held AI days across every one of our offices at BCG with hands-on training. So we have people who are naturally there and ready for it, but we're also investing heavily to bring people up the curve.

You've mentioned in Workforce Innovation-board roundtables that apprenticeship is now a two-way street. What advice would you give leaders looking to deploy apprenticeships differently?

At BCG, we're fortunate to have a pretty flat structure so that you always have a good proximity between your senior leaders and all your staff. There are two ways we focus on helping to support this idea of two-way mentorship.

One is we just talk about topics. I recently wrote a piece about a mental-health town hall we held. It was quite moving. We had BCG employees who were generous and vulnerable in talking to thousands of people on a virtual town-hall panel about their struggles with things like addiction, grief, and depression, both before their time at BCG and during their time at BCG, and how they work through it.

It's about having those difficult conversations, getting the points out there, and starting to have shared language or shared opportunities to talk about these topics.

The AI days that I mentioned already are another way we do this. A lot of it is about getting cross-cohort connections on technology and other topics, creating forums so that people can talk about it.

The other is ensuring continual, structured feedback. Our staff provides 360-degree feedback all the time. It's an important part of what we do, and we're piloting doing it even more frequently. For example, we're giving people 360 feedback on how to be an inclusive leader. So it's both the formal mechanisms and also just creating the formats and discussions.

So much of culture and moving culture forward is really about having the language so we can share and talk about things. Creating those forums helps. It's an invitation to engage in productive ways.

What innovations are happening around DEI, especially as the topic has become more politicized?

DEI is built into our business model. We need great talent. We grow way faster than our talent pools, so just to get people in at quality, we need to be able to reach a lot of people; we need them to thrive.

Our business requires innovation, which requires diverse thought and experience. So, for us, it's quite core. One of my areas of focus is on inclusion and inclusive leadership. In some ways, it's the simplest thing to focus on. We all know that when people feel comfortable being themselves at work, you get the best out of them. They're most motivated, ready to take risks, ready to collaborate, and all of those things.

In North America, where we have the best statistics, 75% of our workforce is part of one or more of our DEI groups. Whatever intersectionality people have, whatever group they belong to, it's about how you make everybody able to show up at their best. That's really where our focus is.

• On Tuesday, Bill Gates published his annual list of his favorite books of the year.
• His top reads of 2024 include an autobiography and a book by the head of Microsoft AI.
• Here are his top books of the year — and his bonus recommendation for tennis fans.

Bill Gates has released his yearly roster of book recommendations as 2024 comes to a close.

The Microsoft cofounder published a list Tuesday of his favorite books of the year.

"All four are, in one way or another, about making sense of the world around you," he wrote in his blog post. "This wasn't an intentional theme, but I wasn't surprised to see it emerge: It's natural to try and wrap your head around things during times of rapid change, like we're living through now."

Here are his top book picks of the year:

"An Unfinished Love Story" by Doris Kearns Goodwin

This autobiography from historian Doris Kearns Goodwin centers on her life with her late husband, Richard N. Goodwin, who was an advisor and speechwriter to Presidents John F. Kennedy and Lyndon B. Johnson.

"Doris is such a talented writer that the chapters about her love story are just as engaging and enlightening as the chapters about the Kennedy assassination and the Vietnam War," Gates said of the book.

"The Anxious Generation" by Jonathan Haidt

Social psychologist Jonathan Haidt argues in his book that smartphones and social media are changing how children grow up and contributing to mental health issues in adolescents.

"It made me reflect on how much of my younger years—which were often spent running around outside without parental supervision, sometimes getting into trouble—helped shape who I am today," Gates said of the book. "Haidt explains how the shift from play-based childhoods to phone-based childhoods is transforming how kids develop and process emotions."

"Engineering in Plain Sight" by Grady Hillhouse

This book from civil engineer Grady Hillhouse offers an illustrated field guide to the modern constructed world.

"Hillhouse takes all of the mysterious structures we see every day, from cable boxes to transformers to cell phone towers, and explains what they are and how they work," Gates wrote in his blog post. "It's the kind of read that will reward your curiosity and answer questions you didn't even know you had."

"The Coming Wave" by Mustafa Suleyman

Suleyman cofounded AI firms Inflection AI and DeepMind, which was acquired by Google. He now heads Microsoft's AI division. His book focuses on future opportunities and risks posed by artificial intelligence as well as other scientific breakthroughs, including gene editing.

Gates said of the book: "If you want to understand the rise of AI, this is the best book to read."

"Federer" by Doris Henkel

Gates' bonus book pick is a visual biography of tennis player Roger Federer by sports writer Doris Henkel. It features never-before-published photos of the sports icon.

"I thought I knew pretty much everything about Roger's history with tennis, but I learned a ton, especially about his early years," Gates said.

• Marjorie Powell, AARP's CHRO, is a member of BI's Workforce Innovation board.
• Powell says creating a collaborative learning environment is key to helping employees adapt to AI.
• This article is part of "Workforce Innovation," a series exploring the forces shaping enterprise transformation.

As the chief human resources officer at AARP, Marjorie Powell devotes much of her professional energy to meeting the needs of the multigenerational workforce. These days, much of that involves navigating AI's impact to ensure every employee at the nonprofit is prepared for the technological changes shaping the workplace.

"Our goal in everything we do for our employees is to provide the resources, support, and capabilities they need to make good decisions within the company's guidelines," she said. "We take the same approach with AI."

Powell's mission extends beyond AARP's workforce. As an advocate for the 50-and-over demographic, she champions the adaptability and contributions of older workers in a tech-driven economy.

"There's an assumption that people over a certain age are not comfortable with technology, but what's overlooked is that many older people — particularly those at the end of the baby boomer generation — were at the forefront of this technological revolution," she said.

The following has been edited for length and clarity.

How did AARP handle the introduction of AI in its workforce?

We decided to use Copilot because we're already a Microsoft company. We got enough licenses to set up a working group with key people we thought would be super users. The idea was to experiment with AI tools and see how they fit into our workflows.

We wanted to learn and figure out what works and what doesn't. Then, we could make a decision about how we were going to roll it out to the company, since one, it's costly; and two, we wanted people to feel comfortable with it.

What were some of the outcomes of the working group, and how did those results shape the way AARP approached training and support?

We issued a policy, a generative AI use case approval process, and a mandatory training for all staff to complete to learn how to use gen AI in the workplace. The training focused on internal and external use and the types of information that can be shared, public versus private, and so on.

We encouraged our staff to 'Go out there and play with it.' We then surveyed them and asked, What are you using it for? What are some great use cases you've developed? How's it helping you enhance your productivity? How are you using this tool to further the AARP mission?

We also considered what existing structure we could use to encourage staff to use AI and explore the technology. We already had a structure in place called Communities of Practice — groups where employees learn and share. It's like an employee resource group (ERG), but focused on learning and development within industry, so we used this model to create an AI Community of Practice.

What are some of the 'great use cases' for AI for your HR team specifically?

We get a lot of calls and emails on simple things about AARP benefits and policies. People ask questions like: I'm having knee surgery next month. How do I sign up for FMLA? or Where do I find my W2? or I bought a Peloton. Is that eligible for the fitness credit? So we started building an HR chatbot to provide that kind of information. It's much easier for employees to ask the chatbot instead of overwhelming a team member with those queries.

We're currently piloting the chatbot with 300-400 frequently asked questions and answers preloaded. It directs employees to the right information without them having to dig and helps us understand what additional information we need to include.

Many employers are using AI tools in hiring, but there are concerns about potential bias. What's your perspective on this?

We use AI for sourcing candidates. All AARP recruiters are certified to conduct Boolean searches to increase the accuracy of identifying talent with specific skill sets in the marketplace.

But when it comes to screening and interviewing, we don't use AI. We find that the technology is still very biased, specifically when it comes to age. Until the technology matures enough to minimize bias, I don't believe it's a good idea to use it without that human component of judgement.

Speaking of age, what are your thoughts on ageism in the workplace today, especially from companies hesitant to hire older workers?

Companies don't want to be the kind of organization that isn't welcoming to talent, regardless of age. Due to the economy and the rising cost of healthcare, many people in the 50-plus community are re-entering the workforce.

Many in that age group have valuable skills and experience and are eager to return. They often say, 'I don't need to be in a leadership role. Been there, done that. I just want to help and be of use.' They also naturally take on mentorship roles, as people seek their guidance. By embracing this segment of the workforce, companies can gain huge value.

What do employers misunderstand about older workers and technology?

Baby boomers were at the forefront of the technology era, and they're more comfortable with technology than many people realize. In fact, they are among the largest consumers of technology products. Tech companies really need to pay attention to this demographic.

I look at myself — I'm about to turn 60 — and I was selling Commodore 64s when I was in high school. I've seen everything from floppy disks to CDs, to cassette tapes, to 8-tracks, to digital streaming and everything else. I've experienced all versions of technology, and I've adapted. I'm still willing to adapt, and I'm still learning.

Over the past two years, American businesses have been engaged in a rapid-fire restructuring of their corporate hierarchies. In the name of "flattening," they've been waging war on middle managers — trimming an entire tier of supervisory jobs that Mark Zuckerberg derided as nothing more than "managers managing managers, managing managers, managing managers, managing the people who are doing the work." Following Meta's lead, Citi reduced its 13 layers of management to eight. UPS axed 12,000 of its 85,000 managers. And in September, Amazon announced plans to increase its ratio of workers to supervisors by at least 15%. "I hate bureaucracy," CEO Andy Jassy declared, echoing the zeal for "efficiency" that Elon Musk, one of the pioneers of the current corporate flattening, is now seeking to unleash on the halls of government.

But here's the thing: It's not just that tens of thousands of middle managers have lost their jobs. It's that the jobs themselves have been eliminated — and they may not be coming back.

To test that theory, I asked Revelio Labs, a workforce analytics provider, to crunch the numbers for me, using its database of job postings aggregated from across the internet. It divided employees into two buckets of managers (senior leadership and middle management) and two buckets of lower-level employees (experienced associates and junior workers). Then it looked at how many job openings employers are posting today, compared with the hiring heyday of 2022.

What the data reveals is stark. Earlier this year, when white-collar hiring was at its lowest point, openings for junior roles — entry-level positions requiring little to no prior experience — were down by 14%. But hiring had plunged by 43% for middle managers and 57% for senior leaders. If you had any sort of management experience, your job prospects were bleak.

Since then, though, we've seen a significant rebound in job postings for almost everyone — except middle managers. In October, employers were still advertising 42% fewer middle-management positions than they did in April 2022. Which means that those who lost their jobs in the Great Flattening are now facing a whole new horror: There aren't any positions left for them to take.

The assault on middle managers dates back to the 1980s, when globalization gave rise to a new philosophy of management that prioritized cost cutting over everything else. Supervisors — earning big salaries for rubber-stamping the work of their subordinates — became an easy target. Trim the fat, the thinking went, and the efficiencies will follow. From 1986 to 1998, one study found, the number of managers reporting to division heads dropped by 25%. At the same time, the number of managers reporting directly to a CEO nearly doubled.

Executives got the flattening that they wanted. But it's unclear whether getting rid of middle managers actually made companies run more efficiently. As I wrote last year, one study found that businesses with fewer layers of management were able to deliver their products faster. But study after study found that when middle managers do their jobs right, they bolster performance more than either top executives or ground-level employees. Supervisors do real work. They motivate. They mentor. They communicate critical information to and from different parts of the company. They smooth out glitches and spot opportunities. They're the ones who keep the trains running.

But now is an especially bad time to be an experienced supervisor. According to an analysis by Live Data Technologies, another workforce analytics provider, middle managers made up 32% of layoffs last year, compared with 20% in 2019. And as the data from Revelio Labs shows, companies appear to have no intention of refilling those supervisory roles, even as they resume hiring for lower-level jobs. That has created a double whammy for middle managers: There's a sharp spike in job seekers, and they're competing for an increasingly small universe of open roles.

Over the past year I've heard from hundreds of managers mired in this double whammy. What's struck me is how eerily similar their stories are. They all come across as smart and articulate. They're all in their late 40s to 50s. When they got laid off from their supervisory jobs, they didn't expect their job search to be too difficult. After all, they'd spent decades honing their skills and climbing the corporate ladder, often at leading companies. Surely, all that experience had to count for something. But despite sending out hundreds of applications, they can't get anyone to return their calls. They're utterly baffled, and they all have the same question: What is going on here?

It's the question I've been asking, too — combing through government data, talking to employers and economists, studying applicant-tracking systems. Because so many of the frustrated job seekers are older, I thought maybe we were seeing some new form of age discrimination: Call it the Curse of the Gen X Professional. But it's only after seeing the data from Revelio Labs that I finally understand what's going on: There just aren't enough supervisory jobs to go around anymore.

In response, many displaced managers have swallowed their pride and started applying to jobs lower on the corporate food chain. As Revelio Labs' data shows, nonmanagerial jobs are faring much better these days — and you'd think companies would be thrilled to get the experience and know-how of seasoned professionals on the cheap. But take the example of a former middle manager I'll call Rick, who is 54. After getting rejected for all the supervisory jobs he could find, he widened his search to include entry-level positions — only to be rejected for being overqualified.

At this point, all Rick wants is a chance to prove himself. "Forget the titles, forget all that other stuff," he told me. "I just need a job. My unemployment runs out in about 30 days. I'll come in and do a great job for you."

This is the paradox that lies at the heart of the Great Flattening: The very experience that should be a selling point for senior leaders has become a liability. Some have tried deleting former jobs from their resumes, to hide their supervisory experience. Others, like Rick, omit the year they graduated from college. One former chief operating officer, whose search has gone so poorly that she's now applying to be an executive assistant, told me she addresses her overqualified-ness in her cover letters. "I understand that my résumé has some big titles on it, but let me tell you who I am at heart," she writes. "I really want to be doing this, and I'm not wedded to the title."

What all the out-of-work managers want to know is: When is the hiring freeze for supervisors going to thaw? That depends, in large part, on whether companies come to view the flattening as a success. Many CEOs insist they aren't getting rid of middle managers just to save money. They think having fewer layers of management will, as Zuckerberg put it, create a "stronger" company that can build "higher-quality products faster." That hints at a dark prospect for managers like Rick: The rung of the corporate ladder they spent their careers reaching could be gone for good.

There's a chance, of course, that the current craze for corporate flattening could ease over time. Companies are already discovering that having few middle managers is placing an enormous strain on their operations. The supervisors who survived the purge have been forced to take on much larger teams, and they're burned out to a crisp. Gen Zers, deprived of their mentors, are increasingly disengaged. Departments are more siloed than ever, with no one to do the tedious and thankless and essential work of coordinating across different teams. The best hope for managers like Rick is that CEOs are getting a real-time refresher in the value of managers.

"I'm not at that point in my life where I'm ready to take that step back," Rick told me. "I just want to work with good people and enjoy what I'm doing. I could go to Domino's and start delivering pizza. But I know I can do a lot more than that."

Aki Ito is a chief correspondent at Business Insider.

• The STAR and PARADE methods of answering behavioral interview questions are both popular.
• They can help when you're asked about a time you faced a challenge or made a mistake at work, for example.
• Career experts shared with BI their advice for how and when to use each method.

Share an example of a challenge you've faced at work. Describe a time you had to make a difficult decision in your role. Tell me about a mistake you've made on the job.

We've all probably heard some variation of these behavioral interview questions before. Though they're pretty common, it can still be difficult to know the right way to answer them.

Two well-known methods, STAR (Situation, Task, Action, and Result) and PARADE (Problem, Anticipated consequence, Role, Action, Decision-making rationale, End result), are commonly suggested as means to craft your response.

While the two are both ultimately designed to guide candidates with their answers, which structure is more effective?

We asked career experts to break down the difference between the two, and which one may work best for you.

The STAR method

The widely used STAR framework is a personal favorite recommendation of Amri Celeste, a recruitment manager and interview coach.

"The pros are that the STAR Method structure automatically arranges an answer into a story format," she said. "And we tend to remember information in story format much easier than plain data or information, so it automatically makes answers memorable."

The straightforward format is broken down into four simple steps:

1. Situation: Set the scene by providing context on the challenge you faced.
2. Task: Explain your role in that situation.
3. Action: Describe what actions or steps you took to tackle the situation.
4. Result: End with the outcome of your actions and how you grew from the experience.

Andrew Fennell, a former corporate recruiter and founder of résumé builder website StandOut CV, said that the STAR method's structured approach is especially effective at exhibiting "measurable achievements" and "clear problem-solving skills."

"It helps candidates organize their responses by focusing on a specific scenario, their responsibilities, the actions they took, and the outcomes they achieved," he said.

However, Fennell said that the framework may sometimes feel "rigid" and responses could seem "overly rehearsed." Additionally, he said that candidates using the STAR method sometimes are not able to "highlight softer skills or adaptability in more abstract scenarios."

The PARADE method

While the STAR method can offer succinct, informative answers, the PARADE method is a more detailed structure that examines the decision-making process and its broader impact in greater depth.

"This is particularly useful for leadership or strategic roles where the reasoning behind actions is just as important as the outcomes," Fennel said.

The PARADE method is broken down into a slightly longer structure:

1. Problem: Lay out the challenge or situation you faced.
2. Anticipated consequence: Explain the potential consequences or impacts that could occur if the problem remained unsolved.
3. Role: Define the role or position you played in resolving the situation.
4. Action: Describe what specific actions you took.
5. Decision-making rationale: Explain the reasoning behind your actions and why you chose those steps as opposed to other ones.
6. End result: Finish with the outcome of the situation.

Although both the STAR and PARADE methods provide examples that illustrate how candidates can achieve jobs, Tessa White, CEO of The Job Doctor and author of "The Unspoken Truths for Career Success," said that she finds the PARADE structure "more powerful."

"It gives greater context — how big was the problem? Why was it a problem? How do I know I created impact?" said White.

However, Fennel said that candidates might find it more difficult to prepare the PARADE method due to its level of detail.

"It risks leading to lengthy or overly complex answers if not handled carefully," he said.

Which is better? It depends on the question or role

Although both structures are effective in showcasing a candidate's ability through an example, Fennel said that the STAR method is particularly useful for "standard competency-based interviews" that need "concise and focused" answers.

"Its straightforward structure works well for roles that prioritize technical expertise or clear problem-solving," he said.

Celeste recommends using the STAR method for questions that require an example, such as ones that begin with "Describe a time when" or "Give an example of." In contrast, the structure is less suitable for questions like "Tell me about yourself" or "Why should we hire you?"

However, for questions focused on problem-solving and critical thinking, Celeste suggests using the PARADE method. This includes prompts like "Can you walk me through a situation where you needed to adopt a new strategy?" or "Describe a complex problem you faced at work."

She also said the PARADE method is better suited for mid to senior-level roles because of its detailed format, which results in longer and more complex answers that "may not be needed for a first-level position."

In the end, however, what's most important is telling a compelling story that demonstrates what you've accomplished and what you can do in the new job.

"I've sat through thousands of interviews, and the person who can clearly share how they solved a problem or created impact is rare," says White. "Most individuals focus on what they can do, but not how they can do it. I'm looking for proof points, and both methods do just that."

• Jensen Huang is becoming more of a household name as Nvidia's value skyrockets amid the AI boom.
• The CEO has some unusual management practices, including having 60 direct reports and no 1-on-1s.
• Here are some of Huang's most notable tips when it comes to business leadership and management.

Nvidia overtook Apple and Microsoft separately earlier this month to briefly become the world's most valuable company.

With the AI chip company's stock skyrocketing, Huang has also seen his fame — and fortune — grow, and there are plenty of eyes on him to see how he runs one of the world's biggest companies.

Here is some of Huang's most notable advice for leading teams and managing a business.

Manage a lot of people

Huang believes a CEO should have more direct reports than anyone else in an organization. He, in fact, has 60 direct reports, considered an unusually high number for any manager.

"The more direct reports the CEO has, the less layers are in the company," Huang said in an interview at The New York Times DealBook Summit in 2023. "It allows us to keep information fluid, allows us to make sure that everyone is empowered by information."

Management exists "in service of all the other people that work at the company," he said in a separate interview with Stanford's Graduate School of Business earlier this year.

"I don't believe in a culture, in an environment, where the information you possess is the reason why you have power," he said.

Be transparent with decision-making

Asked how he manages 60 direct reports, Huang told an audience at Hong Kong University Of Science & Technology that it boils down to one thing.

"Transparency," he said.

"I reason in front of everybody what we need to do. We work together to come up with a strategy," he said. "Whatever strategy it is, everybody hears it at the same time because they were hearing all of us work through the strategy at the same time."

His job is then to make sure everyone comes away from the process with the same takeaway.

"I'm usually the last person to talk, to describe, based on everything that we've done, 'This is the direction, and these are the priorities,'" he added. "And to make sure that, if there's any ambiguity, I've taken out the ambiguity. Now once we're all aligned and we understand what the strategies are, I count on the fact that everyone is an adult."

"Nobody loses alone," he said. "Nobody fails alone."

Skip the 1:1 meetings

Huang has said he doesn't have one-on-one meetings with his many direct reports.

"Almost everything that I say, I say to everybody all at the same time," he said at Stripe Sessions 2024. "I don't really believe there's any information that I operate on that somehow only one or two people should hear about."

Give feedback publicly

In the same vein, Huang also believes in giving someone feedback in front of their peers.

"The problem I have with one-on-ones and taking feedback aside is you deprive a whole bunch of people that same learning," he said at Stripe Sessions. "Feedback is learning. For what reason are you the only person who should learn this?"

He added that learning from other people's mistakes is "the best way to learn.

"Why learn from your own mistakes? Why learn from your own embarrassment? You've got to learn from other people's embarrassment," he said.

Communicate briefly and often

Nvidia employees can expect to receive a lot of emails from their chief executive. Huang sends his staff hundreds of emails a day, many of which are only a few words long, The New Yorker reported last year.

He expects employees to keep their email communications just as concise.

One former Nvidia worker told Business Insider's Jyoti Mann that "you'd get in trouble for sending a super-long email to him."

"The idea was to nail down what you have to say, send it, and if he, or others, need more information, then it's a conversation, not another email," the former Nvidian said.

Show your work

Huang believes showing others how you reason through a problem is "empowering."

"I show people how to reason through things all the time — strategy things, how to forecast something, how to break a problem down, and you're just empowering people all over the place," he said in the Stanford Graduate School of Business interview.

He continued: "If you send me something and you want my input on it and I can be of service to you and in my review of it, share with you how I reasoned through it, I've made a contribution to you. I've made it possible to see how I reason through something."

That can lead to a lightbulb moment.

"You go, 'Oh my gosh. That's how you reason through something like this. It's not as complicated as it seems.'"

• The "Big Four" accounting firms employ about 1.5 million people worldwide. 
• Many of these employees make six-figure salaries and are eligible for annual bonuses.  
• Business Insider analyzed data to determine how much employees are paid at these firms. 

The so called "Big Four" accounting firms — Deloitte, PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC), KPMG, and Ernst & Young (EY) — are known for paying their staff high salaries. 

An entry-level consultant who just graduated from business school can make over $200,000 a year at the four firms when you include base salary, bonuses, and relocation expenses. 

Several of these firms have faced layoffs and implemented hiring freezes over the past year as demand for consulting services has waned. Still, they're a good bet for anyone looking to land a six-figure job straight out of school. 

Business Insider analyzed the US Office of Foreign Labor Certification's 2023 disclosure data for permanent and temporary foreign workers to find out what PwC, KPMG, EY, and Deloitte paid US-based employees for jobs ranging from entry-level to executive roles. We looked through entries specifically for roles related to management consulting and accounting. This data does not reflect performance bonuses, signing bonuses, and compensation other than base salaries.

Here's how much Deloitte, PwC, KPMG, and EY paid their hires.  

Deloitte paid senior managers between $91,603 to $288,000

With 457,000 employees worldwide, Deloitte employs the most people of any of the 'Big Four.' It pulled in close to $64.9 billion in revenue for the 2023 fiscal year, marking a 9.4% increase from 2022.

Deloitte did not immediately respond to a request for comment on its salary data or 2024 hiring plans.

Here are the salary ranges for consulting and accounting roles: 

• Analyst: $49,219 to $337,500 (includes advisory, business, project delivery, management, and systems)
• Senior business analyst: $97,739 
• Audit and assurance senior assistant: average $58,895
• Consultant: $54,475 to $125,000 (includes advisory, technology strategy, and strategic services)  
• Global business process lead: $180,000 
• Senior consultant: average $122,211
• Manager: average $152,971
• Tax manager: average $117,268
• Senior manager: $91,603 to $288,000  
• Managing director: average $326,769
• Tax managing director: average $248,581
• Principal: $225,000 to $875,000

Principals at PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) can make well over $1 million.

PricewaterhouseCoopers (PwC) is a global professional services firm with over 370,000 employees worldwide. The firm reported a revenue of more than $53 billion for the 2023 fiscal year, marking a 5.6% increase from 2022. 

PwC did not immediately respond to a request for comment on its salary data or 2024 hiring plans.

Here are the salary ranges for both consulting and accounting roles. 

• Associate: $68,000 to $145,200
• Senior associate: $72,000 to $197,000 
• Manager: $114,300 to $231,000
• Senior manager: $142,000 to $251,000 
• Director: $165,000 to $400,000  
• Managing director: $260,000 to $330,600
• Principal: $1,081,182 to $1,376,196

KPMG offers managing directors anywhere between $230,000 to $485,000

KPMG has over 273,000 employees worldwide. The firm reported a revenue of $36 billion for the 2023 fiscal year, marking a 5% increase from 2022. 

KPMG did not immediately respond to a request for comment on its salary data or 2024 hiring plans.

Here are the salary ranges for consultants, accountants, and leadership at KPMG. 

• Associate: $61,000 to $140,000
• Senior associate: $66,248 to $215,000
• Director: $155,600 to $260,000
• Associate director: $155,700 to $196,600 
• Specialist director: $174,000 to $225,000
• Lead specialist: $140,500 to $200,000
• Senior specialist: $134,000 to $155,000
• Manager: $99,445 to $293,800
• Senior manager: $110,677 to $332,800
• Managing director: $230,000 to $485,000

Statisticians at Ernst & Young (EY) make salaries ranging between $66,000 to $283,500.

EY employs close to 400,000 people worldwide. For the 2023 fiscal year, the firm reported a record revenue of $49.4 billion, marking a 9.3% jump from 2022. 

The firm did not immediately respond to a request for comment on its salary data or 2024 hiring plans.

Here are the salary ranges for consultants, accountants, auditors, and chief executives at the firm: 

• Accountants and auditors: $54,000 to $390,000
• Appraisers and assessors of real estate: $166,626 to $185,444
• Computer systems analyst: $62,000 to $367,510
• Management analyst: $49,220 to $337,500
• Statistician: $66,000 to $283,500
• Financial risk specialist: $62,000 to $342,400
• Actuaries: $84,800 to $291,459
• Economist: $77,000 to $141,000
• Logisticians: $72,000 t0 $275,000
• Mathematicians: $165,136 to $377,000
• Computer and information systems manager: $136,167 to $600,000
• Financial manager: average $320,000

Aman Kidwai and Weng Cheong contributed to an earlier version of this post. 

This article is part of "Workforce Innovation," a series exploring the forces shaping enterprise transformation.

Diversity, equity, and inclusion programs have become the subject of a heated, politicized debate over the past few years.

Several major corporations, including John Deere, Microsoft, and Molson Coors, have made headlines recently for rolling back their DEI initiatives.

Meanwhile, Walmart, the world's largest retailer, announced it would no longer use the acronym in its communications and would not extend its Center for Racial Equity, a nonprofit established in 2020 with a five-year, $100 million commitment to address racial disparities.

Even so, as we've reported in this series, many companies remain committed to the values of DEI — but are shifting their strategies for a new era. Whatever the motivation of the companies, it's clear that DEI is undergoing a period of change.

Business Insider asked its Workforce Innovation board to participate in a roundtable to discuss how DEI programs are evolving. We wanted to find out what structural changes are happening, how companies can continue to build trust with employees, and what role artificial intelligence is poised to play.

The consensus around the virtual table was that the focus of the DEI story is shifting to business outcomes and the skills needed to achieve them. "We can't do it the old way," Purvi Tailor, the vice president of human resources at Ferring Pharmaceuticals, said. "We have to have the conversation in a new way. It becomes much more about inclusion and changing mindsets and creating awareness about your own biases."

Skills-based hiring is one way companies are working to identify diverse candidates organically. "Let's focus on the skills that are required for the future of work and what we are looking for from leaders in our company," Maggie Hulce, the chief revenue officer at Indeed, said. "And then be more consistent in the application of holding that bar."

By homing in on the skills organizations need to succeed and how to use AI tools to help surface in-house talent, companies could move the DEI story away from conflicts and focus on its benefits.

"It dismisses this notion that you have to lower the bar if you want diversity in your organization," said Spring Lacy, the global head of talent acquisition and DEI at Verizon. "We've got lots of super smart, super skilled people of color, women, people with disabilities, LGBTQI community, who just aren't seen for all of the biases that you talked about. You don't have to lower the bar."

Roundtable participants included:

• Anant Adya, executive vice president, service offering head, and head of Americas Delivery, Infosys
• Lucrecia Borgonovo, chief talent and organizational effectiveness officer, Mastercard
• Chris Deri, president, Weber Shandwick Collective
• Maggie Hulce, chief revenue officer, Indeed
• Spring Lacy, vice president, chief talent acquisition and diversity officer, Verizon
• Purvi Tailor, vice president of human resources, Ferring Pharmaceuticals USA

Here are six key takeaways from the discussion.

Skills-based hiring, supercharged with AI tools, helps companies find 'hidden figures'

Skills-based hiring is a strategy that some companies are using to identify candidates and reduce bias in the hiring process. The approach focuses on the skills needed to fulfill the role, minimizing qualifications like college degrees or previous job titles.

With artificial intelligence, talent leaders can accelerate the hiring process and uncover strong candidates within their companies that they might have missed before.

Lacy, who was previously an HR leader at Prudential, said AI is empowering existing employees to showcase their abilities more effectively.

"When went to recruit internally, and we pulled people based on the skills profile and not based on proximity bias or any other bias, our slates were inherently more diverse," Lacy said.

The critical piece for companies is to figure out the best way to capture an accurate and comprehensive view of employees' skills.

Verizon uses the Workday HR platform and is piloting a program with its partner company, Censia, that uses an AI tool to help employees craft their profiles.

Lacy has seen how difficult it can be for employees to isolate their skills in ways that might help them be identified for new opportunities. "When we said to employees, 'Go build a skills profile,' the page was blank," she said. "It was really hard for people to get started." AI tools can pull information from a range of sources and serve up a framework that guides employees through the process.

Mastercard has launched an employee-skills initiative with the software company Gloat. "It has been a really great way to democratize access to opportunities for employees," said Lucrecia Borgonova, Mastercard's chief talent and organizational effectiveness officer.

The outcome for companies can be a more diverse talent pool from inside the house.

Lacy said Verizon is conscious of the potential for bias in the AI programs, but early indicators suggest that more individuals are being considered for roles than in the past.

"We are uncovering hidden figures in this organization because there are people who we don't know, because they are not well networked, they don't have sponsors," Lacy said. "If not for this technology, we wouldn't have known that they were there, to be able to lift them and perhaps provide them with other opportunities."

Leaning into the 'I' of DEI — inclusion

DEI programs have many aspects, including employer branding and attracting a diverse talent pool, screening and hiring, and compensation.

Inclusion relates to a person's workplace experience and their sense of belonging at an organization, which research suggests makes people want to join and stay at a company. Benefits are an essential part of that employee experience, and companies may want to think about how these packages reflect their values to staffers and prospects alike.

Ferring Pharmaceuticals introduced a program in 2022 that includes unlimited financial support for creating a family — through IVF, adoption, surrogacy, or birth — for all employees, regardless of gender or sexual orientation.

Ferring's Tailor said it is one way that the company emphasizes its approach to its entire workforce.

"We talk about more of the 'I' than we do about the 'D' and the 'E,'" Tailor said. "We do it to show the kind of culture and working environment that we want to have. It's all about inclusion and bringing your whole self to the workplace."

Linking AI tools with culture and leadership

As companies develop new hiring strategies, culture does not stand still.

"Inclusion and belonging are essential parts of the culture, the value proposition, and key to driving the outcomes of our business," said Mastercard's Borgonovo. "It's really important that we drive shared accountability across our 34,000 employees around the role that each of us has to collectively play in creating this culture of inclusion where everybody feels that they can belong."

Borgonovo said that Mastercard is exploring ways to leverage AI to help business leaders across the organization improve efficiency and be more intentional about DEI and other workforce goals.

"How do we enable people, leaders, from an automation or efficiency standpoint? How do we help them be more proactive?" she said. "How do we help them create more bandwidth by automating certain processes so then they have more time to coach and develop their teams."

She said the company is exploring how AI can be used to coach leaders to role-play and get feedback on how they engage with their teams. "AI can be your coach, your copilot, and help augment your leadership," she said.

Ditching the DEI silo

Indeed's Hulce said a lot of time goes into optimizing the company's structure. "How do you make it the norm that equity needs to be built into processes, period," she said.

It's not just about interviewing and hiring diverse candidates, but about leading teams through every opportunity and decision, including promotions, performance bonuses, and assignments.

"How do you measure that? How do have regular conversations with managers at different levels in the organization about the expectation that we will be looking at equity in all of these steps," Hulce said.

Indeed once had a DEI team that worked parallel to the HR function. But when the previous HR leader left the company, they decided to reorganize and embed the DEI discipline across the business, elevating the previous head of DEI to chief people officer.

Hulce said realigning DEI was essential to scaling goals, standards, and accountability across the company. "It's almost an impossible task to ask a separate group to influence everybody else unless it's built into core processes somehow," she said.

Infosys is also considering its optimal DEI structure. "We are slightly decentralized," Anant Adya, an executive vice president, said. The global company has a centralized corporate DEI team, with DEI councils at the individual industry units. Adya said the company will leverage AI tools to help measure effectiveness.

Hulce emphasized the need to regularly and consistently review management decisions. "It can't be just once a year," she said. "You evaluate, you check, and if there's a correction to be made, you say, 'OK, guys, something looks amiss.' The expectation is we will be following equitable processes."

Using AI to scrutinize hiring, while retaining the human touch

Adya said Infosys is using AI to analyze patterns in its hiring data.

"It is very important to look at and analyze the data based on how hiring patterns are being used and if there is any bias in the hiring process itself," he said.

AI will grow increasingly important in analyzing the efficacy of various recruitment sources. "A lot of times we see that employee referrals actually work the best," he said. "But that might not be true when it comes to specific DEI initiatives."

By enlisting AI tools to analyze online sources, university partnerships, and other talent alliances and platforms the company is using, Adya said it should be able to optimize its approach around specific goals.

But all the AI analysis in the world does not negate the need for the human touch. Adya said that sometimes there's a perception at the company that hiring is being done only to hit certain DEI benchmarks and that the process is too onerous.

Adya said that hosting a "clear dialogue" about the company's decision-making process around recruitment methodology has helped employees understand the company's rationale.

"It's always better to sit down and explain why this is critical for the unit and why it is important," he said. "Sometimes open dialogues, going back to the old school, not using AI or gen AI, but just sitting and talking and removing that uncertainty and lack of transparency helps a lot."

Leveraging AI-powered insights to change the DEI story

Proponents of DEI maintain that a diverse, inclusive workplace yields better business results, and there are studies that also support that view.

Opponents of DEI, said Chris Deri, the president of Weber Shandwick's corporate advisory business, tend to focus on the methodology of achieving workplace diversity, such as companies actively seeking women for leadership positions, seemingly at the expense of male candidates.

"That's what DEI opponents are focused on," Deri said. "Like, how do you pull together a candidate pool, like having women candidates somehow be seen to be at the front of the line."

Deri said that companies should work to shift the perspective to DEI outcomes and tangible business benefits — and should leverage artificial intelligence to surface insights that might not be obvious.

"AI can do that in a way that human knowledge management and analysis is not going to be able to do," Deri said. "We can use the power of AI to look across our enterprises' data and knowledge and start to collect the outputs and outcomes of the principles of applying DEI. "

Deri said that if a large language model can be trained on the outcomes, such as attracting new customers, creating new products, and building community trust, "that might be something that uses technology to help the storytelling about DEI. We really need to change the entire story now."