• JPMorgan Chase has spent billions to become a technology-driven bank.
• Now, due to the bank's RTO stance, some of its tech workers are considering leaving.
• Recruiters and insiders lay out how its policy could spell trouble for retaining its top tech talent.

Anthony has never been interested in attending town halls, but when texts started rolling in about his top boss' remote work diatribe, it was too much for the technology vice president to ignore.

An IT employee named Nicolas Welch had questioned JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon while he was visiting an office in Columbus, Ohio, about leaving some return-to-office decisions up to managers. Dimon launched into an expletive-laced response, in which he complained about employees not paying attention on Zoom and that there's "not a goddamn person" he could get a hold of on Fridays.

The audio of the exchange went viral. It also struck a nerve, and now some employees are considering leaving, teaming up to influence work policy, or, like Anthony, entertaining job offers from rival banks.

"Jamie Dimon's like, 'Well, hey, if you don't like it, you know where the door is.' Yes, we do," said Anthony, which is a pseudonym to protect his identity since he was not authorized to speak about internal matters. "And that's going to impact him. He's going to lose some good people."

JPMorgan has long prided itself on being a tech-driven bank, with a $17 billion IT budget and nearly 60,000 technology workers. To stay ahead of its rivals and keep clients engaged, it funds research and development across cutting-edge technologies, such as artificial intelligence, quantum computing, and crypto.

Business Insider spoke with two recruiters and five JPMorgan employees, four of whom requested anonymity for fear of losing their jobs, who said the bank's unpopular RTO mandate could spell trouble for the bank's ability to retain and attract tech talent. While Dimon has espoused the merits of in-person collaboration, support for the RTO plan was scarce among those interviewed by BI.

As the March 3 expiration date for hybrid work approaches, Dimon has said he's aware that his hardline stance could push some employees away and is fine with that attrition.

"I completely respect people that don't want to go to the office all five days a week. That's your right. It's my right. It's a citizen's right," Dimon said in a CNBC interview Monday. "But they should respect that the company is going to decide what's good for the clients, the company, etc., not an individual."

As 70% of the bank's 317,233 employees are already in the office five days a week, technology workers are part of the contingent still working one or two days at home.

The battle for technical talent — which tends to be industry-agnostic — was long fought using perks, with companies providing lavish extras like fancy food, massages, and even paid family planning services to keep workers happy and attract new ones. With many of those falling away as companies focus on cost cutting, recruiters say hybrid work is emerging as the strongest benefit a company can offer.

Ryan Mazza, who runs the New York office of the financial-talent search firm Selby Jennings, said he had "no doubt" that there would be talent attrition among companies that impose a five-day RTO. "There will certainly be a competitive disadvantage for those companies," he said.

Companies with flexible working policies have quickly distinguished themselves from the wave of their competitors pulling employees back to the office. Spotify plastered its message on a Times Square billboard in early January, saying its employees aren't children and it was sticking with remote work. Citigroup CEO Jane Fraser maintained her pledge to hybrid work this month, as did the fintech Revolut.

Welch, the tech operations analyst who triggered Dimon's testy comments, said the town hall roused employees rather than quieted them. The RTO decision has pushed some workers to explore the possibility of a union and organizing a unified response.

"People are absolutely emboldened. I don't know fully what that means yet," he said.

JPMorgan declined requests for comment.

Tech behemoth of Wall Street

JPMorgan's technology footprint is massive by a few measures. The bank employs about 44,000 software engineers globally who run more than 6,000 applications and manage about an exabyte (1 billion gigabytes) of data. That engine of people, systems, and data has helped the bank bring in record financial results, with its net income rising to $59 billion for 2024.

The bank also has big AI ambitions, with Dimon saying he has no intention of losing the AI arms race to disruptors. It has created a robust AI research department led by a former Carnegie Mellon researcher, Manuela Veloso, and has earned the top spot on the Evident AI Index, an independent benchmark for AI adoption and performance in finance.

Mike Mayo, a Wells Fargo analyst who regularly grills Dimon on earnings calls, last year called JPMorgan the "Nvidia of banking," commenting on its tech spend outpacing that of any other bank.

Reputation and prestige only go so far, said Deepali Vyas, the global head of the data, AI, and fintech practice at the headhunting firm Korn Ferry. She said she'd seen other companies fail to hire cloud, data, and AI talent purely because of their return-to-office policies.

"The challenge for banks is that top tech talent has options," Vyas said, adding: "If firms insist on a rigid in-office structure without a compelling trade-off, they risk losing talent to more agile, innovation-friendly environments." Vyas added that she knew of a very senior-level managing director within JPMorgan's corporate and investment bank who told her they're considering quitting because of the return to office.

A JPMorgan executive director overseeing data scientists and data engineers, a key hiring area for the bank and its AI ambitions, said he's worried about losing talent to the in-office order.

"Taking away a hybrid schedule, I honestly think, shrinks our talent pool even more," the executive director said. "I wonder how many people were already on the fence in comparison to other opportunities but now said, 'Forget this. I don't want to be forced into an office.'"

While JPMorgan made headlines with its return-to-office policy, remote work has steadily tightened across corporate America. Wall Street bosses such as Goldman Sachs' David Solomon and Citadel's Ken Griffin pulled workers back to the office in 2021. Big Tech companies, including Amazon, Dell, and AT&T, have more recently piled into the effort.

Selby Jennings' Mazza said he's already seeing pay demands increase for finance-sector jobs over the industry's return to office. Tech workers who are considering these jobs are demanding $5,000 or $10,000 in added pay to cover childcare or offset commuting costs, he said.

While some JPMorgan employees, including Anthony, are already in talks with prospective new employers, recruiters said they didn't see a mass exodus of talent coming overnight as today's tech job market favors employers.

Down the line, though, the bank's RTO demands and execution could come back to bite it.

"Once that turns, even if the pendulum starts swinging just a little bit the other way, and this includes JPMorgan and all those other guys," Korn Ferry's Vyas said, referring to Amazon, Dell, and Salesforce, among others, the top performers "will be the first people that leave for that benefit."

'Rushed and unplanned'

Questioning one of the most powerful people on Wall Street has raised Welch's profile within JPMorgan. Welch, who supports network equipment inside Chase branches, joked he's going to have to buy a wrist brace for the number of high-fives he gets walking down the hall. A stranger even gave him a mockingjay pin, a nod to the dystopian "Hunger Games" movie series wherein the pin becomes a symbol of rebellion.

A story about Welch getting fired before the move was rescinded, reported by Fortune, has caught the attention of other employers. He said he'd received multiple job offers in the past week. It's a moot point: "Why would I want to work somewhere else? Chase is the best," he said.

But Welch, who works three days a week out of JPMorgan's Polaris campus in Columbus, is still a critic of the firm's plans. One reason is that he advocates for a hybrid schedule for employees like himself who help care for family members.

"I live with my mom. She is 68. She can't reach the top shelf," Welch said. "She needs help with stuff, and I'm here to do that, you know? I can turn around and go do a thing and come back to work. Why wouldn't I want to do that?"

Home to more than 19,000 employees across 13 buildings, Polaris also boasts the fourth-highest-grossing Starbucks. The campus has been key to several tech initiatives, like overhauling its deposit system on the public cloud and developing edge cloud computing for faster data analysis.

Employees BI talked to said that offices didn't have enough desks, parking, or conference rooms and that office cafés wouldn't be ready for the increased RTO traffic.

In the January memo about the call back to the office, the bank's operating committee acknowledged that not all office locations would be ready for the March 3 deadline and said more information would be shared by the end of the month. The committee added that some offices had capacity restraints and timelines for those would become available on a location-by-location basis.

But as of late February, many workers said they were still waiting for an update. For example, Polaris-based staff have yet to be told when they'll be called into the office.

The "messaging feels rushed and unplanned," the data executive director said.

Meanwhile, one analyst whose office permanently closed during the pandemic and was designated a fully remote worker has been left in the lurch about whether they'll have a job in March.

"I've only been told that it's business as usual until I'm told otherwise. I was, however, advised by my manager as a friend to consider putting feelers out for new roles elsewhere," the analyst said.

Despite these uncertainties, many have been given their marching orders, and some question: What's the point?

"Just because you bring people back into the office doesn't mean you're not going to have Zoom calls," a software manager in Ohio said. "The whole collaboration thing is utter bullshit in my mind because I'm still going to be getting on Zoom calls. The only difference is, two of the people I'm on Zoom calls with might be sitting right beside me," the technologist, who works with people in Texas and Singapore, said.

Putting gasoline on a fire

The aftermath of the RTO rollout has stoked a fire within some JPMorgan employees to unionize.

"They anticipated this was coming," Nick Weiner told BI about JPMorgan employees' RTO expectations. Weiner is a senior campaign lead for Communications Workers of America who has led the effort of some 25 Wells Fargo branches in unionizing. He told BI that he had been in touch with JPMorgan workers for a similar effort.

"The way he did it helped to really put gasoline on this fire," Weiner said of Dimon's town hall comments. Dimon has since said that he shouldn't have sworn.

A petition against the in-office policy has garnered more than 1,700 signatures, and an internal Signal group counts about 200 members. Dimon said in the town hall he didn't care about how many people signed the petition, but that hasn't deterred workers.

Welch participated in a meeting last week with other JPMorgan employees to learn more about the basics of the unionizing process, not because he dislikes his employer — "even after cussing at me, I arguably have more respect for him," Welch said of Dimon — but because he loves it.

"A union is such a difficult thing to kind of even get going, but we love our jobs so much just in general that we're going to do that," Welch said. "We want to be heard. And these draconic orders are so unlike what we've worked in. It's so unlike what we've dealt with."

• JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon said he supports efforts to make the government more efficient.
• "The government is inefficient, not very competent, and it needs a lot of work," Dimon said.
• Dimon also said the US has become a "highly bureaucratic, litigious, over-regulated society."

JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon said he has a "wait-and-see attitude" regarding the Trump administration and the White House DOGE office, but he's hopeful DOGE will succeed.

"More effective government — more efficient government — isn't bad. It's actually a good thing," Dimon said in an interview with CNBC on Monday during JPMorgan's Global Leveraged Finance Conference in Miami.

When asked about how DOGE, tariffs, and President Donald Trump's slew of executive orders could impact the economy, Dimon said it's too soon to say and will depend on how the changes are implemented.

But in general, he said he supports efforts to make the government more efficient and effective.

"The government is inefficient, not very competent, and it needs a lot of work," he said. "It's not just waste and fraud, it's outcomes. Why are we spending the money on these things? Are we getting what we deserve? What should we change? I think doing that needs to be done."

DOGE aims to reduce government spending and waste and improve efficiency. Much of its early efforts have focused on cutting the federal workforce and targeting specific federal agencies, like USAID.

"I'm hoping it's quite successful," he said of DOGE.

Dimon has previously had a rocky relationship with Elon Musk, a special government employee closely associated with DOGE, though the two have appeared to be on better terms over the past year. Dimon said last month he and Musk "hugged it out" and that the billionaires have settled some of their differences.

Dimon has also said he supported the idea of a department of government efficiency and that he'd love to be helpful to DOGE if he can.

In the CNBC interview on Monday Dimon also expressed support for the Trump administration's deregulation stance, saying the US is a "bureaucracy completely run amok."

"We have become a highly bureaucratic, litigious, over-regulated society, and it's bad," he said, adding that he's not opposed to all regulations but that they've gotten "excessive."

After the election in November, Dimon said bankers were "dancing in the street" at the prospect of Trump slashing regulation.

On Monday he said changes to regulations could free up capital to grow the economy and "free the banks to what they're supposed to do."

"We have the best natural system in the word," he said. "Let's keep it that way. Let's not hamstrung it."

• JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon defended some of his comments on DEI and WFH.
• He said he wasn't against working from home overall but opposed it in certain circumstances.
• He described some DEI efforts as wasteful but said the bank was committed to diverse communities.

Many people have piled into the work-from-home debate that's been amplified by Jamie Dimon's testy comments. Now Dimon has something he wants to say back to them.

During a CNBC interview on Monday from JPMorgan's global leveraged finance conference in Miami, Dimon acknowledged some faults.

"I should never curse, ever. That — OK," he said. "And I shouldn't get angry or stuff like that."

He then defended his stance on pulling employees back to the office five days a week, a mandate set to go into effect for most workers on March 3.

"I completely respect people that don't want to go to the office all five days a week. That's your right. It's my right. It's a citizen's right," Dimon said. "But they should respect that the company is going to decide what's good for the clients, the company, etc., not an individual."

He added: "They can get a job — and I'm not being mean — they can get a job elsewhere. I understand that it may make total sense for them to do that."

Dimon was defending some fiery comments he made during an internal town hall in February, the audio of which was published by Barron's. In it, Dimon complained that there was "not a goddamn person" he could get a hold of on Fridays and griped about employees not paying attention on "fucking Zoom."

Dimon said in the interview with CNBC that "we do have 10% of jobs that are full time at home," highlighting virtual call centers in Baltimore and Detroit.

"I'm not against work from home," Dimon said. "I'm against where it doesn't work."

JPMorgan employees have spoken out about some of the drawbacks of being back in the office full time, and a petition against the in-office mandate collected more than 1,700 signatures. Dimon said in the town hall that he didn't care about how much support the petition garnered, and he reiterated that during the Monday interview.

"That's fine. They have the right to feel that way," he said. "But we're not going to change. We're going back to the office, and I'm sure when we do there'll be some seats not available. But for the most part, most of our people understand why we need to do it."

During the town hall, Dimon also sounded off on JPMorgan's DEI-related programs, reportedly saying, "I saw how we were spending money on some of this stupid shit, and it really pissed me off," and threatening to cancel them because "I don't like wasted money in bureaucracy."

He said on Monday that what he found specifically wasteful were "trainings that don't work, or too many of them," and hiring outside consultants for meetings and events. He also argued that a lot of small programs grew over time and should be consolidated.

He said the bank was "still going to reach out to the Black, Hispanic, LGBT, veteran, disabled communities," adding, "We're not changing that."

• An audio recording of Jamie Dimon's WFH tirade at a JPM town hall has gone viral.
• Business Insider obtained a copy of last week's recording out of Columbus, Ohio.
• Here's more of what he said at the wide-ranging meeting, from AI to the CFPB.

JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon has become a TikTok sensation over his comments slamming work-from-home at a recent town hall with employees.

However, audio recordings of the meeting suggest that remote work was just a sliver of the conversation. Dimon also fielded questions from employees and addressed a wide range of issues, from whether AI will replace their jobs to what his request for improved "efficiencies" means for their work-life balance, according to copies of the tape obtained by Business Insider. At one point, he encourages employees to welcome job-stealing AI, saying, "Attrition is your friend."

A TikTok video of Dimon's comments, posted by financial publication Barron's, has garnered 2.4 million views, thanks in part to his colorful and direct explanation for why the bank is calling all employees back to the office five days a week starting in March.

"And don't give me this shit that work-from-home-Friday works," Dimon told the crowd, according to the recording, which BI attained a copy of. "I call a lot of people on Fridays, and there's not a goddamn person you can get a hold of."

Dimon made the comments at a town hall in Columbus, Ohio, on Wednesday, following the opening of a nearby branch with a community center. JPMorgan has a large presence in Ohio, including a headquarters that housed some 12,000 employees when it reopened following renovations in 2023, according to a press release. At the time, the firm called the building "the firm's largest" office space.

Here is some of what he said, including his thoughts on President Trump's dismantling of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and his advice to young people. The comments are edited in places for length and clarity.

How improved efficiency affects JPM workers

At one point in the meeting, Dimon addresses his push for a more efficient workplace and what it might mean for workers' work-life balance.

"We could be far more efficient and we should always be thinking that way. That's not to torture our people. I want you to have a great life, I don't want you to overwork," he said. "But I think reducing bureaucracy literally will reduce cancer. I think dealing with the demoralizing effect of bureaucracy — you lose people, it gets you sick, and I really do believe that, so — I could be wrong."

On AI taking jobs

Dimon responded to a question about AI by saying that he expects the technology could "eliminate" some jobs. He advised employees, however, to welcome the threat and figure out how to adjust. "Attrition is your friend," he said.

"You know, it'll change some of your jobs — for a lot of you it will be a copilot, for a lot of you it will take away the drudgery, and it may very well eliminate jobs, too. And for that, I don't wanna stick my head in the sand. But what I wanna do is say, 'hmm, let's get ahead of that.' And, you know, I would say, attrition is your friend, you know, if you have jobs it's gonna replace, you know, we could retrain and reskill and redeploy people. But let's learn to use it like any technology to the best we can for our clients."

On young people falling behind

At one point in the call, a software engineering intern asked about Jamie's past comment on young people falling behind, including the challenges they face and how he intends to help. He responded by reiterating the benefits of his return-to-office mandate.

"Yeah, no, I think the ones falling behind that the ones that are not here full time. [laughter] No, no, I'm being quite serious," he said. "It's the ones who aren't here that are meeting less people, learning less, being challenged, not being put on the same amount of teams because they're not here — you know, and that's what I'm talking about."

On Trump dismantling the CFPB

Dimon also addressed President Trump's efforts to shrink the CFPB, which was created in the aftermath of the financial crisis to protect consumers in the financial marketplace. The agency has collected some $19.7 billion in consumer relief through its enforcement actions, including some against JPMorgan.

Dimon said he thinks the CFPB has some benefits, but he applauded Trump's removal of director Rohit Chopra earlier this month and said he thinks the agency should be an arm of the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency.

"The only thing good I'll say about the CFPB is there are consumer protective rules that are good. They should be put in place to protect consumers. Having said that, they were duplicative. The OCC already did it. The Fed does it. The FHA does it. So we get it," said Dimon. "They massively overstepped their authority. I think this guy — Chopra or whatever his name is — was just an arrogant, out-of-touch son of a bitch who just made things worse for a lot of Americans. So if they get rid of it or not makes no difference to me. It should exist, but it should be inside the OCC like it used to be, when it comes to banks."

Nonbank financial regulation

Dimon suggested the CFPB could be put to better use going after nonbank financial institutions.

"You may want a CFPB for nonbanks. Think of payday lenders and all these other things that are not regulated. But remember we're heavily regulated. But at least if it's inside a bank the regulators get to look at safety and soundness, what makes sense, what's fair, how products should be priced or not priced, you know, set best practices. But I assume they're gonna be very tough on the CFPB, and the CFPB has earned it."

On the bank's fintech failings

In response to a question about growth in 2025, Dimon reminded employees that the bank has to acknowledge competition and avoid complacency. As an example, he talked about his and the bank's failures when competing with fintech and even bulge-bracket banks like Bank of America.

"Don't say, well, we're the best in the world. Assume that they're doing something better. Even Bank America does something better than us. Shocking, I know, but. [laughter] It's the digital world. They were ahead of us in digital. How the hell — I don't know. But it's your job to catch up now. And so, but, there are other things that we could have done like a Stripe or stuff like that, but we didn't have the imagination, including me, to say, hmm, we have the best payments, but we should add data and make it easier for the client. What does the client really want? It wasn't the payment they wanted. They wanted to close the sale faster and more certainly."

Do you work for JPMorgan? Reach this reporter at [email protected] or, for sensitive messages, on the encrypted app Signal at 305-857-5516.

• An audio recording of an f-bomb-dropping Jamie Dimon is going viral.
• The JPMorgan CEO, however, is no stranger to salty language.
• Dimon made the comments at a JPMorgan town hall while discussing work-from-home

A viral audio recording of JPMorgan Chase's CEO at a recent Town Hall meeting contained some salty language not commonly heard from titans of industry.

Jamie Dimon, however, is no stranger to the colorful and at times confrontational language used in this past week's work-from-home debate with employees.

Last year, he slammed the private-equity industry for its recruiting tactics with comments that hushed the room, as Business Insider reported at the time. "I think that's unethical. I don't like it, and I may eliminate it regardless of what the private-equity guys say," he said at a Q&A at Georgetown University.

He's also no stranger to curse words, including the f-bomb. In 2012, New York magazine quoted him as saying, "It's a free. F—-ing. Country," in response to heated questioning about the financial crisis and a trading snafu that cost the bank billions of dollars.

He's dropped colorful language in response to mundane topics, like succession planning.

"I think the most important strength is you're trusted and respected by people, that you work your ass off, that you give a shit, that you know you don't know everything," he said during the company's annual presentation for investors in 2023, according to a transcript provided by AlphaSense.

Or when speaking about JPMorgan's balance sheet.

"And the important part as a shareholder is I want to deal with that, acknowledge our mistakes, try to have a fortress-controlled balance sheet, try to stop stepping in dog shit, which we do every now and then," he said during a 2015 earnings call.

Or the economy.

"When the shit hits the fan, and it will one day, we don't know when, there will be a lot of stranded borrowers," he said at a financial industry conference last year.

It's a style that may be surprising to some but which has earned him a reputation in some circles as Wall Street's straight-talking CEO.

"He's somebody who's direct," Tony Blair, the former British prime minister, said about him in a 2011 Reuters article. "He's not somebody who'll sit in a meeting when someone says something he disagrees with quietly. He'll get up, he'll stand up and speak."

Dimon's f-bomb-dropping style came into full view this week when the financial publication Barron's posted a short audio recording of him slamming work-from-home at an employee town hall in Columbus, Ohio. The video clocked some 1.7 million views as of Friday afternoon.

"And don't give me this shit that work-from-home-Friday works," Dimon told the crowd, according to the recording, a copy of which was obtained by BI. "I call a lot of people on Fridays, and there's not a goddamn person you can get a hold of."

As Business Insider reported in January, JPMorgan has called all its workers back to the office five days a week starting in March. The return-to-office mandate affects mostly back-office workers, including tech staffers, who were not already in the office Monday through Friday.

According to Reuters, the RTO mandate prompted one group of workers to launch an online petition, which Dimon addressed at the meeting, saying: "Don't waste time on it. I don't care how many people sign that f—-ing petition."

• JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon lashed out at WFH in a now-viral audio recording.
• The remarks are drawing WFH defenders but also fans of RTO.
• Billionaire Bill Ackman applauded the remarks on X as "a must listen."

An audio recording of Jamie Dimon slamming remote work is going viral, and work-from-home supporters and naysayers alike are sounding off.

On Elon Musk's social media platform X, some users applauded the JPMorgan Chase CEO's defense of the bank's 5-day RTO requirement, which was first posted online by financial news publication Barrons.

"I'm with Jamie," Quentin Kasseh, CEO of data and AI company Syntaxia, posted on X, adding that "no breakthrough like the Manhattan Project is built on Zoom calls."

Hedge fund billionaire Bill Ackman also cheered Dimon on. "He is entirely right," Ackman posted on X, adding: "We can all learn from him. A must listen."

The audio recording, which Business Insider obtained and confirmed, has amassed 1.7 million views and counting on TikTok alone. In it, Dimon uses multiple expletives and anecdotes, some drawing laughter, to explain to staffers in the room why remote work is a detriment to his company.

"A lot of you were on the fucking Zoom and you were doing the following," Dimon said in the recording, "looking at your mail, sending texts to each other about what an asshole the other person is, not paying attention, not reading your stuff."

He made clear he wouldn't be flexible with the bank's COVID-era hybrid-work policy that is scheduled to end in March.

"And don't give me this shit that work-from-home-Friday works," Dimon said. "I call a lot of people on Fridays, and there's not a goddamn person you can get a hold of."

As Business Insider reported in January, JPMorgan has called all its workers back to the office five days a week starting in March. The return-to-office mandate affects less than 30% of the bank's employees, mostly back-office workers, including tech staffers.

Some viewers of the video used it as an opportunity to defend remote work.

"WFH is SO much better," one TikTok user said. "I can type notes while in a meeting. I have more energy from not commuting, and I'm more productive overall."

"Newsflash, we do those things in the office as well," said another TikTok user.

Some people suggested that the real problem is an endless stream of pointless work meetings.

"The damn unnecessary meeting is the epitome of inefficiency," one TikTok user said. "Can't stand the 7 hours of meetings that turn an 8-hour day into 12 cause nothing getting done during those meetings."

Do you work for JPMorgan? Reach this reporter at [email protected] or, for sensitive messages, on the encrypted app Signal at 305-857-5516.

• Jamie Dimon said that while he "would never rule it out," running for president is tough.
• The JPMorgan CEO said in a podcast that being president would mean being away from his family.
• "Some people are prepared for that, I was unprepared for it at the time," Dimon said.

Jamie Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan Chase, said his family was one reason he did not run for president.

"I tell people, had I run and won, when I was walking into that White House, I'd be waving goodbye to my family for four years. They'd be saying, 'See ya, dad,'" Dimon told David Novak on the latest episode of the "How Leaders Lead" podcast, which aired on January 30. "I'm not sure my wife would have gone with me, there."

Dimon added that the presidency means "subjecting your family to some very tough stuff."

"Some people are prepared for that, I was unprepared for it at the time," Dimon said.

Dimon said that while he "would never rule it out," running for president would be difficult for him because of other reasons, too.

"I do think there are skills that people have in the business world that may translate to the political world, but I think it's a mistake to automatically think that's true," Dimon said, adding that he didn't think he had the necessary political skills to make the transition.

That's on top of the experience one should accrue from smaller political appointments before gunning for the presidency, Dimon told Novak.

"I literally think you should kind of have a warm-up before you go for president. A warm-up could be Congress, or Senate, or governor," Dimon said. "You have seen people learn those skills before you go for the big enchilada."

Running for president would also mean having to give up his job at JPMorgan, which he enjoys, Dimon said.

"I'm damn proud of it so — I think I add a lot here. I'd be giving that up for kind of a wild goose chase," Dimon said.

Dimon's age and health were also factors in his decision.

"I think it's hard. I'm 68 years old. As you know, I have had a health problem or two. So when you put it together, it just didn't seem like the right thing for me to do," Dimon said.

In 2014, JPMorgan said Dimon had been diagnosed with throat cancer, though it went into remission after treatment. In 2020, Dimon had another health scare — he was rushed to the hospital for emergency heart surgery.

Representatives for Dimon at JPMorgan did not respond to a request for comment from Business Insider.

This isn't the first time Dimon has been asked about his political ambitions. The 68-year-old banker said at an investors meeting in May that his retirement timeline was "not five years anymore," and that a plan to name his successor was "well on its way."

Then, in October, Dimon told analysts in an earnings call that he had no plans to join President Donald Trump's second administration if he was offered a role.

"I think the chance of that is almost nil, and probably I'm not going to do it," Dimon said.

"I intend to be doing what I'm doing — I almost guarantee I'll be doing this — for a long period of time, or at least until the board kicks me out," he added.

• Donald Trump and activists are taking aim at DEI programs in government and the corporate world.
• Fortune 500 companies, like Meta and Walmart, have begun scaling back some DEI initiatives.
• Yet a defense of DEI by JPMorgan's Jamie Dimon and leaders at Costco show the efforts aren't dead.

DEI might be down, but it's not dead.

One of President Donald Trump's first executive orders upon returning to office aimed to stomp out federal DEI programs, a pledge he made on the campaign trail. Before Trump's inauguration, industry bellwethers Meta, McDonald's, and Walmart had announced plans to roll back at least some of their diversity, equity, and inclusion work.

On Friday, Target said it was ending its several programs related to diversity.

Yet, elsewhere in the corporate world, there are still high-profile supporters. Take Jamie Dimon. This week, the JPMorgan CEO defended the bank's DEI work as activist shareholders appear to be targeting the company, among other financial heavyweights, over their DEI programs.

"Bring them on," Dimon told CNBC on Wednesday in reference to the critical investors.

Costco has also shown support for DEI in the days leading up to Trump's return to the Oval Office. Then, on Thursday, the retailer's shareholders overwhelmingly defeated a proposal from the National Center for Public Policy Research that would have required Costco to produce a report on its DEI work — a move the board opposed as being both politically biased and a waste of resources.

Many companies stepped up or talked more about their DEI efforts after the 2020 murder of George Floyd and the racial justice protests that followed.

Yet diversity efforts have been under attack in recent months, first by conservative activists and now by Trump, prompting many companies to reconsider their advocacy for progressive initiatives.

Trump's executive order has the potential to ripple further through the private sector. The president wants federal agencies to identify "the most egregious and discriminatory DEI practitioners" across public companies and nonprofits for possible civil investigations.

Still, the companies that are sticking by DEI seem unperturbed.

More innovation, smarter decisions

One of the reasons some major companies are doubling down on DEI today is because they say it's good for business.

Dimon, for example, said JPMorgan's efforts to reach out to the Black, Hispanic, LGBTQ+, and veterans groups, among others, were "90% for-profit." He spoke to CNBC on the sidelines of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.

In the company's most recent annual report, issued in April, Dimon wrote that JPMorgan's work around DEI leads to "more innovation, smarter decisions and better financial results" for the company and the economy. A JPMorgan spokesperson declined to comment further to BI.

At Costco, 98% of shareholders voted against a measure that would have required the retailer to investigate any legal or financial risks tied to the company's DEI work. The results followed a unanimous recommendation by the board urging them to reject the proposal.

The board wrote in December that its commitment to running a business "rooted in respect and inclusion is appropriate and necessary." Costco did not respond to BI's request for further comment.

About half of US residents are female, while more than 40% consider themselves non-white, according to the nonprofit USAFacts.

Activists are targeting DEI programs

Other companies have made pitches in favor of DEI. Apple has encouraged investors to vote against a shareholder proposal to jettison its DEI programs. In a filing this month, it criticized the petition as one that would constrain Apple's "ability to manage its own ordinary business operations, people and teams, and business strategies."

Some of that pressure from investors comes as activists, like the influencer Robby Starbuck, have pushed companies — sometimes successfully, in the case of Walmart — to alter their programs.

A Walmart spokesperson told BI that the company remains committed to "creating a culture where everyone can be successful, and ensuring we are a Walmart for everyone."

Meta's vice president of human resources, Janelle Gale, wrote in a memo this month that the parent of Facebook and Instagram would cease to have a team focused on DEI. She also said that the term DEI had "become charged" because it's sometimes seen as a "practice that suggests preferential treatment of some groups over others."

In Target's announcement Friday, Kiera Fernandez, the company's chief community impact and equity officer, wrote that, as a company that sees millions of customers daily, "we understand the importance of staying in step with the evolving external landscape."

Part of that shifting landscape, as Meta's Gale noted in her memo, involves what's legal. That reassessment follows the Supreme Court's 2023 decision ending affirmative action in college admissions. While it's not permissible to practice DEI in a way that becomes discriminatory, the Trump administration's push to weaken DEI could prompt added scrutiny of corporate programs, legal experts told BI.

Meta, McDonald's, and Target didn't respond to BI's requests for further comment. Apple didn't immediately respond to an inquiry sent outside normal business hours.

Even before the White House's pushback, it was already a tough political environment for DEI, which critics often assail for prioritizing gender or ethnicity over merit. In addition, some who sympathize with the aims of DEI programs contend that some of the efforts aren't effective and need to be reimagined.

'A business imperative'

Companies might be convinced to stay the course on DEI because such efforts are often part of a strategy to attract and keep the best workers, Diana Scott, US human capital center leader at The Conference Board, told BI. The Conference Board describes itself as a nonpartisan, nonprofit entity. As part of its work, it operates councils for business leaders in areas including diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging.

The majority of execs Scott talks with from the large companies that make up the think tank's membership say they plan to continue their DEI work.

"For them, it's a business imperative," she said.

Having a diverse workforce where the focus is on equity — things like fairness in opportunities and in how workers are rewarded — leads to better culture and collaboration, Scott said. That, in turn, drives innovation and better business results.

"People don't view this as a zero-sum game," she said, referring to the views on DEI among many of the business leaders she talks to.

Some DEI efforts haven't been working

That support doesn't mean, however, that there aren't DEI efforts that couldn't be improved, Scott said.

Some researchers agree.

Iris Bohnet, a behavioral economist at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government and coauthor of the book "Make Work Fair," told BI that some measures, like diversity training, too often fail to change behaviors that could be influenced by bias, such as decisions on hiring, promotions, or performance appraisals.

"What we have been doing in the past five to 10 years really hasn't been working," she said.

That's one reason to revisit — yet not abandon — DEI, Bohnet said. Focusing on ideas like fairness could create greater buy-in from skeptics, she said.

Many workers support DEI

Another reason some employers are likely to stick with DEI is because employees often support it.

In an August survey of some 1,300 workers and executives at US companies, 58% of respondents told the Conference Board that their organization put an appropriate amount of effort into DEI. About one in five workers said their employer didn't go far enough.

For groups that have historically often faced a tough time on the job, DEI often matters a great deal. About half of women and 56% of Black workers told the Conference Board they wouldn't work for an organization that didn't regard it as important.

"Many of these companies have been practicing DEI for decades," Scott said. "This is not performative for them."

Jennie Glazer, CEO of the think tank Coqual, which focuses on barriers to advancement for underrepresented people in the workplace, told BI that its members, which include big companies like JPMorgan, believe that "inclusive" workplaces are more effective.

"Diverse teams make better decisions and solve problems faster," she said.

That's why she thinks it's unlikely that many companies will ultimately abandon all of their efforts in this area.

"We are going to have a very multicultural workforce, whether or not you invest in DEI," she said.

• JPMorgan Chase on Thursday said it raised CEO Jamie Dimon's pay for 2024.
• Dimon earned $39 million following a year of record profitability, compared to $36 million in 2023.
• The disclosure comes as the CEO navigates questions around how long he'll remain at the helm.

JPMorgan Chase on Thursday said it raised CEO Jamie Dimon's 2024 compensation following a record year of profitability.

In a regulatory filing, America's biggest bank by assets said it paid its longstanding CEO $39 million for 2024, up 8.3% versus last year. Dimon earned $36 million in 2023 and $34.5 million in 2022.

The bank awarded him a base salary of $1.5 million plus $37.5 million in "performance-based variable income." Of that much greater share of the total, $5 million will be awarded in cash, with the rest — $32.5 million — in a form of equity known as performance share units, or "PSUs."

"PSUs tie 100% of Mr. Dimon's annual equity-based compensation to ongoing performance metrics, representing 87% of his total variable incentive compensation," the company said in the filing.

Earlier this month, the bank reported record financial results for 2024, with net income rising to $59 billion, an increase of 18% from the almost $50 billion it generated the year prior. Over the past 12 months since late January 2024, the company's stock price has climbed around 57% to about $265 per share.

Last week, Goldman Sachs said it awarded its CEO, David Solomon, $39 million for 2024. Separately, the bank gave Solomon and his deputy, Goldman President and COO John Waldron, $80 million in stock that will vest over five years.

Dimon's pay disclosure comes amid questions about his tenure. He is the longest-serving CEO of a major bank, having taken the top role in 2006, but made headlines last year when he said his time as JPMorgan's CEO was waning.

"The timetable is not five years anymore," he told investors and analysts, referring to a running joke about how often he's said five years when asked how long he might remain at the helm.

In 2021, the bank's board of directors offered Dimon a more than $50 million retention bonus to remain in the CEO role through at least 2026. On the firm's January earnings call, Dimon suggested he has another four to five years as CEO. He has also left open the door to staying on as executive chairman.

"Now you're talking potentially four, five years or more. I'll be 69 in March. I think it's the rational thing to do," he said.

Reed Alexander is a correspondent at Business Insider. He can be reached via email at [email protected], or SMS/the encrypted app Signal at (561) 247-5758.

• Jamie Dimon reaffirmed JPMorgan's DEI commitments after pressure from an activist shareholder.
• One group wants JPMorgan to revisit how compensation is tied to the company's racial equity goal.
• Trump's executive order on Monday ended DEI programs in the federal government.

Jamie Dimon is doubling down on JPMorgan's diversity, equity, and inclusion commitments amid pressure from an activist shareholder.

In an interview with CNBC at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, the JPMorgan CEO said the bank continues to push ahead with its work in DEI work and environmental, social, and governance policies.

"Bring them on," Dimon said about activist efforts."We are going to continue to reach out to the Black community, the Hispanic community, the LGBT community, the veterans community."

Dimon is known for working on both sides of the political aisle. In 2020, JPMorgan announced a $30 billion program aimed at working on racial equity in personal finance, a move that came as other financial institutions made significant commitments to similar causes. JPMorgan's program included mortgage refinancing and working with Historically Black Colleges and Universities.

Dimon's comments at Davos come as the National Legal and Policy Center, a conservative nonprofit, proposed this month that JPMorgan revisit how executive compensation is tied to the company's racial equity goal.

JPMorgan started an "accountability framework" in 2020 to assess executives' progress toward DEI goals, which affects compensation. The firm doesn't publicly break out what proportion of executive pay, including for Dimon, is tied to DEI work.

JPMorgan and the NLPC did not immediately respond to requests for comment from Business Insider.

The NLPC has sent shareholder proposals focused on climate, China, and other issues to major companies in recent years.

In a different interview with CNBC on Wednesday, David Solomon, the CEO of Goldman Sachs, said he had seen news of shareholder proposals, but that he has not yet looked at any of them.

"We're advising our clients to think about these things," Solomon said. "They think about decarbonization, they think about climate transition. They think about their businesses, how they find talent, the diversity of the talent they find all over the world."

Goldman Sachs did not immediately respond to BI's request for comment.

Shareholder proposals — about any subject — do not always end up on companies' ballots. Proposals against ESG, including those against DEI, that came to a vote garnered little support in the last four years, per a review by shareholder advisory firm Institutional Shareholder Services.

"These politicized campaigns have failed to make the case for the economic impact related to the requests," wrote Subodh Mishra, ISS's head of communications, in November.

On Monday, President Donald Trump signed an executive order ending DEI programs in the federal government and an order ending DEI-based hiring in the Federal Aviation Administration.

In recent months, several high-profile companies have rolled back their DEI programs, including Meta, McDonald's, Ford, and Walmart — the nation's largest private employer.

• Jamie Dimon and Elon Musk are continuing to make amends.
• The JPMorgan Chase CEO told CNBC they've "hugged it out."
• Dimon wished Musk the best with DOGE and said he'd "love to be helpful" with the government efficiency effort.

Jamie Dimon and Elon Musk are patching up their relationship after a yearslong feud.

Dimon, the CEO of JPMorgan Chase, told CNBC's "Squawk Box" in an interview that aired Wednesday that the two of them have "hugged it out."

"He came to one of our conferences, he and I had a nice long chat, we've settled some of our differences," he said in the interview.

Musk attended a JPMorgan tech summit in March, where he and Dimon spoke for an hour onstage, and Musk also visited Dimon's suite at the resort, The Wall Street Journal reported in June, citing people familiar with the matter.

In his CNBC interview, Dimon went on to call Musk "our Einstein."

He also expressed support for the Department of Government Efficiency (DOGE) that Musk is leading. President Trump signed an executive order Monday to create DOGE and make it officially part of the White House. Its stated mandate now is to update the federal government's software and IT systems, a marked change from Musk's desire to use DOGE to slash regulations and federal spending.

"We deserve good government," Dimon said. "I don't think anyone thinks that sending another trillion dollars to Washington, D.C., will lend to good government so government needs to be more accountable. It needs to be more efficient, it should be outcomes-based."

Dimon said DOGE would have its work cut out for it, but he supports Musk's efforts.

"I wish him the best. It's going to be complicated, the federal government's complicated, you've read about all the people in it," Dimon said. "If we can be helpful to them, I'd love to be helpful to them."

Musk had floated the idea for DOGE in August during a live-streamed conversation with Donald Trump on X, formerly Twitter. Musk said he'd "be happy to help out" on a government efficiency commission — which Trump said he'd "love" — if Trump won the election. Musk spent upwards of $200 million in efforts to get Trump and other Republicans elected.

Dimon said last year that he does "actually like" the idea of "having an efficiency commission."

"I think governments have to become more efficient, more competent," Dimon said in an interview with CNBC in September. "And look at, when they take money, what do they get for it. I actually think it's a very good idea."

It now looks like Musk will lead DOGE alone after Ramaswamy dropped out earlier this week ahead of a possible gubernatorial bid in Ohio.

Dimon and Musk started reconciling last year after several spats and lawsuits over the years.

Their feud dates back at least to 2016, when JPMorgan walked away from underwriting leases for Tesla vehicles.

In 2021, JPMorgan sued Tesla and Musk for $162 million, saying Musk's carmaker "flagrantly" breached a 2014 contract pertaining to warrants sold to the bank. JPMorgan adjusted the value of warrants after Musk tweeted in 2018 about taking Tesla private, which he walked back shortly after. Tesla countersued, saying the bank was angry at being left out of Musk's business and that senior JPMorgan executives had "animus" toward Musk.

The SEC later charged Musk with securities fraud, and Tesla and Musk each agreed to pay $20 million to settle the suit.

The companies dropped their suits against each other in November and agreed for the case to be voluntarily dismissed with prejudice, meaning the claims can't be refiled.

• JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon said he was looking at tariffs as an economic tool.
• Speaking in Davos, he said they could help address trade imbalances and boost national security.
• "National security trumps a little bit more inflation," he said.

JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon said Wednesday that while tariffs may lead to consumer price increases, they have other potential benefits.

"They're an economic weapon, you know, depending how you use it," he told CNBC's Andrew Ross Sorkin at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.

President Donald Trump has said he intends to hit Mexico and Canada with 25% tariffs and China with an additional 10% tariff starting February 1.

Many economists and critics have argued that US consumers ultimately bear the costs of tariffs and that the strategy is at odds with Trump's promise to bring prices down.

Dimon acknowledged the debate over the policy's contribution to inflation but said there were important considerations aside from keeping costs as low as possible.

"If it's a little inflationary but it's good for national security, so be it," he said, adding, "National security trumps a little bit more inflation."

Dimon previously said he was "cautiously pessimistic" about the economy as a second Trump presidency begins, even against a backdrop of geopolitical uncertainties.

Tariffs, he said on Wednesday, can be a way to "bring people to the table" to address complex issues like unfair trade balances and state subsidies.

"We'll see how it gets played out," he said. "We're going to find out."

• JPMorgan Chase CEO Jamie Dimon was asked on an earnings call who's likely to replace him.
• Dimon suggested there's a running list but that no final decision had been made.
• The comments followed a recent leadership reshuffle over a top exec's retirement plans.

One of the biggest Wall Street storylines over the years has been around who will eventually take over as CEO of JPMorgan Chase — a role long held by Jamie Dimon.

Questions resurfaced this week when America's biggest bank by assets announced a series of management changes triggered by the pending retirement of Daniel Pinto, the firm's president and COO and longtime stand-in for Dimon in case of emergency.

The leadership reshuffle sparked fresh speculation about who might succeed Dimon, which played out on the company's fourth-quarter earnings call on Wednesday.

"Jamie, who's your successor?" Mike Mayo, a Wells Fargo bank-research analyst, asked on the call.

Dimon suggested that there's a running list of candidates (including some whom analysts like Mayo may not suspect) but that no final decision had been made. He declined to name names, however, except for Jenn Piepszak, the co-CEO of JPMorgan's commercial and investment bank who was tapped to replace Pinto as COO and has said she doesn't want the CEO job.

"We have several exceptional people. You guys know most of them. Maybe one or two you don't know," Dimon told Mayo. "The board reviews and meets with them all the time. I think it's wonderful that Jenn Piepszak, who does not want to be the CEO, will be here as
chief operating officer and stay after that."

As Business Insider reported this week, Pinto is set to step down in June from his day-to-day role and fully retire at the end of 2026. Piepszak agreed to take on the COO role vacated by Pinto but took her name out of consideration for CEO.

"And obviously, we're not going to tell the press, but it's not determined yet," Dimon said. Even if there was a top pick, he said, things could change by the time he stepped down as CEO.

"People get sick. They change their mind or family circumstances. So even if you thought you knew today, you couldn't be completely sure," he said.

Dimon made headlines last year when he said his time as JPMorgan's CEO was coming to a close. "The timetable is not five years anymore," he told investors, referring to a running joke about how he's often said five years when asked how long he might remain at the helm.

On Wednesday, Dimon suggested that he still planned to retire as CEO, though not necessarily as chair, in four to five years.

"Now you're talking potentially four, five years or more. I'll be 69 in March. I think it's the rational thing to do," he said.

"I've had a couple of health problems, you know," he added, referring to his cardiac issues in recent years. In 2020, he underwent emergency heart surgery.

"If I'm here for several more years, I may or may not be chairman," he said, adding: "It's going to be up to the board."

• Daniel Pinto will step down as JPMorgan's president and COO in June and retire at the end of 2026.
• The JPMorgan veteran has long been CEO Jamie Dimon's stand-in in case of an emergency.
• Jennifer Piepszak has been promoted to chief operating officer but doesn't want the CEO role.

Daniel Pinto, long the JPMorgan Chase executive who would stand in for Jamie Dimon as CEO in an emergency, will step down as a top lieutenant.

Pinto is being replaced as chief operating officer by Jennifer Piepszak, currently a co-CEO of JPMorgan's commercial and investment bank.

At first glance, the promotion might appear to vault Piepszak into the lead in the race to succeed Dimon. But she has said she doesn't want the CEO job.

"Jenn has made clear her preference for a senior operating role working closely with Jamie and in support of the top leadership team going forward and does not want to be considered for the CEO position at this time," a bank spokesman, Joseph Evangelisti, said.

"She is deeply committed to the future of the firm and our people and wants to help the company in any way she can," Evangelisti added.

Piepszak will be succeeded at the commercial and investment bank by Doug Petno, currently a cohead of global banking, the bank said on Tuesday. Troy Rohrbaugh, the other co-CEO of the commercial and investment bank, was promoted to that post in a reshuffle a year ago.

Such reshuffles are intended to give the bank's top leadership greater familiarity with its businesses. The latest shake-up comes a day before JPMorgan is set to report its fourth-quarter earnings and may reshape the speculation about who will succeed Dimon, who turns 69 in March.

At the bank's investor day last May, Dimon abandoned his usual answer to the succession question to say that his timeline was "not five years anymore." He has led the bank, America's biggest and most influential, since January 2006.

While his target date may have come more into focus, the identity of who the bank's board will want as his successor remains fuzzy.

Piepszak, who has served as chief financial officer and head of the consumer business among other positions at the bank, had been seen as a leading candidate. Rohrbaugh, Petno, and Marianne Lake, who remains the chief executive of consumer and community banking at JPMorgan, are also considered potential candidates. Those executives, and Mary Erdoes, the chief executive of asset and wealth management at the bank, report directly to Dimon.

In a note on Tuesday, Mike Mayo, a banking analyst with Wells Fargo, wrote that "succession has been a bit murky, and this [the management shakeup] doesn't change it much." Dimon, Mayo said, could remain in the top job for several more years, noting that the CEO has 1.5 million of stock options that vest in mid-2026.

The 'hit by the bus' executive

Dimon has described Pinto as his "hit by the bus" executive. When Dimon had emergency heart surgery in 2020, Pinto and Gordon Smith, then the bank's presidents, ran the bank.

The bank said on Tuesday that Pinto would step down as president and chief operating officer in June and retire at the end of 2026.

It also said John Simmons, the head of commercial banking, would succeed Petno and team up with Filippo Gori as coheads of global banking.

Pinto will remain on through the end of 2026 to help with the transition to Piepszak.

In a press release, Dimon described Pinto as "a first-class person who I am proud to call a friend" and who "has made a truly significant impact on our company for more than 40 years," adding, "I'm thrilled he will continue to support and advise us."

Succession on Wall Street is tricky. Egos can be bruised, talent leaves, tensions flare. Morgan Stanley appeared to have achieved a remarkably smooth transition last year, with Ted Pick succeeding James Gorman as CEO and the two runners-up staying on. But succession drama is more common.

As Mayo, the Wells Fargo analyst, said after the 2024 reshuffle at JPMorgan of a post-Dimon bank, "There are still limited spots at the top of JPM, so there is the risk of departures of other JPM execs who want their shot at the top, too."

• Jamie Dimon urges incoming president Donald Trump to prioritize immigration policy in his second term.
• Trump has said he plans to conduct mass deportation in his second term.
• Dimon also advocates for education reform and doubling the earned income tax credit.

With Donald Trump set to take office in about a week, top Wall Street leaders are coming forward with advice.

JPMorgan CEO Jamie Dimon honed in on immigration policy when asked what advice he'd give Trump for his second presidential term in a CBS News interview posted Sunday. "Get immigration, border security right," he said. "Then proper immigration after that."

Since his debut on the political stage, Trump has been outspoken about immigration policy. On the campaign trail last year Trump said he would carry out the "largest domestic deportation in American history." He also plans to end birthright citizenship, build new ICE detention centers, and reinstate his first-term policies. During his first term in office, he curtailed legal immigration rates, signed an executive order that suspended several types of work visas, including H-1B visas, which are crucial for the tech industry, and completed hundreds of miles of construction on a border wall between the US and Mexico.

Dimon says he agrees with Trump's big-picture view on immigration. "You could talk about specifics and disagree, but the concern around border security, obviously, every country in the world is concerned about that," he said.

Beyond immigration, Dimon says he wants to see changes to our education system. "I would love to see high schools, community colleges, and colleges measured on what is the outcome of the kid being educated. Like do they get a job that's well paying, not do they do math well," he said. "I believe that would put a lot more pressure on schools to teach skills that can give you really good paying jobs." That includes jobs in fields like data analytics, manufacturing, nursing, compliance, and financial skills, he said.

He's also in favor of eliminating tax breaks, even for the wealthy. He proposed doubling the earned income tax credit: a refundable tax credit for low to moderate-income workers, particularly those with children. "That alone would put a lot more money into the pockets of people who are working who are lower income, it would go into their communities, into their families," he said.

• Donald Trump said he would impose 10% to 25% tariffs on goods imported from Canada and China.
• Blackstone's Steve Schwarzman was a trade negotiator for Trump during his first term.
• In his book, he sheds light on what it took to get Trump, Trudeau, and others to the negotiating table.

Donald Trump has retaken the White House, and hefty trade taxes are back on the table, including tariffs of up to 25% on goods imported from Canada and Mexico and up to 10% on products from China.

In an effort to gain insight into how Trump's tariff agenda might play out, Business Insider turned to Blackstone cofounder and CEO Steve Schwarzman, who served as a behind-the-scenes trade negotiator for the Trump White House during his first term. Schwarzman declined to comment for this article but described his experiences as a trade advisor during the first Trump White House in his 2019 book, "What It Takes: Lessons in the Pursuit of Excellence," published by Simon & Schuster.

In the book, he said he was tapped as a trade negotiator because he the trust of members of Trump's inner circle and connections to foreign leaders like China's Xi Jinping. Indeed, Schwarzman traveled to China eight times on behalf of the Trump administration, he said.

He described his meetings with Xi and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau to help them understand Trump's motivations, as well as his discussions with Trump on the dangers of taking on too many trade deals at once. He suggested a key to getting the various parties to the negotiating table, including Trump, involved stressing the political risks of not cutting a deal.

The billionaire businessman also described his experiences advising US Presidents George H.W. Bush and Barack Obama. Schwarzman, a Republican, said he is open to helping any US president, regardless of party, if he thinks it will help his country.

"When you take up any challenge laid down in Washington, you can never be certain of the outcome," he said. "But whether you succeed or fail, if the goal is to help your country, it is almost always worth doing."

Schwarzman, who declined an official role with the first Trump White House, declined to comment on whether he has been asked to advise Trump in his second term in office.

Schwarzman's relationship with Trump has had its ups and downs. After his book was published, the billionaire businessman distanced himself from Trump following the capitol riots in 2020, issuing a statement condemning the rioters and supporting the results of the election that removed Trump from office. During the Republican primaries for the 2024 election, the Blackstone CEO issued a statement suggesting he would not support Trump before ultimately backing him during the general election.

Here are the top stories from Schwarzman's book about his years working as a business advisor to Donald Trump, as well as Presidents Barack Obama and George H. W. Bush. The excerpts below are pulled directly from his 2019 autobiography.

Schwarzman's connections in the White House and abroad helped him snag the role.

With the President's support, I became involved in trade talks between the United States and China, and the United States, Canada, and Mexico for a simple reason: I knew the people on all sides and they trusted me. Aside from the president, I have known Steve Mnuchin, the treasury secretary, for years. We have apartments in the same building in New York and are close, personal friends. I have known Wilbur Ross, the commerce secretary, for just as long. …

I had met then party secretary Xi Jinping, the current president of China, in 2007, and knew many of the members of the Standing Committee and the State Council. I met the Mexican president, Enrique Peña Nieto, in 2015, and he had endowed two Schwarzman Scholarships for students from Mexico. His finance minister, Luis Videgaray Caso, often called me or came by to talk whenever he was in New York. And on the Canadian side, I had known the foreign minister, Chrystia Freeland, since she was a journalist for the Financial Times. She had covered Blackstone, and I had always found her to be smart and well intentioned.

Schwarzman warned Trump that his trade wars could backfire.

The president had fired trade salvos at China and Europe, and even within the White House, there was concern that the administration was taking on too much. At the president's request, I met with him to offer my advice on the situation. We met in the private quarters of the White House. When the president arrived, I told him that the way I saw it, the United States was now fighting a multifront trade war with Asia, Europe, and the Americas. America's flanks were exposed, and as important as America is, we are only 23 percent of the global economy; give the remaining 77 percent time, and they would figure out a way to band together and make us miserable.

When Trump refused to meet with Canada's Justin Trudeau, Schwarzman stepped in to help.

Trade talks had once again stalled. The prime minister said Canada could not offer any more concessions and wanted to close out the talks. But the president refused a private meeting with the prime minister at the General Assembly. The White House had gone quiet. Prime Minister Trudeau thought a meeting with US CEOs might foster a better understanding of US business priorities and provide him with new ideas on how to progress negotiations. We held the meeting in my conference room at Blackstone.

Schwarzman urged Trudeau to do a trade deal with Trump.

I gave him my view on what it would take to successfully negotiate a deal and told him that the Americans wanted the Canadians to put their terms on paper. The prime minister said he was worried the Americans would leak them and use them against him. I told him that I did deals for a living and the moment had come for him to stop agonizing. If he refused to meet the US demands of a deal, Canada would almost certainly go into a recession, and no politician wins reelection in a recession. If he did a deal, at least he'd have a chance at political survival.

He urged Trump to make a deal with Trudeau.

Agreeing to a deal would show the rest of the world that the United States was serious about renegotiating trade deals, not just blowing them up. With the midterm elections approaching, it would also be useful to have a deal as proof of the president's campaign promises to voters, particularly in possible swing states in the Midwest.

He described a stressful 48 hours until there was a deal.

I told him [Trudeau] I was seeing the president that evening at 5:30 and that any deal needed to be signed by midnight on Sunday, which all parties understood.

The prime minister looked at me from the couch. He said it would be tough, but he would do it. When I met with the president that evening, he reaffirmed that in my discussions with the Canadians, I had accurately reflected terms that the United States would accept. I called the Canadians to let them know. It took another forty-eight hours of waiting and pleading from all sides before finally, at 10:00 a.m. on Friday, the Americans received the Canadians' written offer. Over the weekend, the details were worked out between the two countries, and on Monday, October 1, 2018, the president announced a revised NAFTA, the United States— Mexico— Canada Agreement, or USMCA.

Schwarzman also acted as a go-between for Trump and China's Xi Jinping.

At lunch, President Xi asked me to talk about newly elected President Trump and his views on China and how he had defeated Hillary Clinton. I explained to him the facts President Trump was dealing with, the economic dislocations suffered by many working and middle-class Americans because of globalization. A study by the Federal Reserve had found that nearly half the country was living paycheck to paycheck, unable to write an emergency check for $ 400. For the first time in American history, millions of people feared they would end up poorer than their parents. Among them were many of the president's voters in the Midwest. The trade deficit made China an easy target, and the strong criticism of China was only likely to get worse.

President Xi told me that if that were the case, he would be prepared to do a major economic reset with the United States. Given he knew that I spoke with the president on a wide variety of issues, including trade, he asked me to tell President Trump that we had spoken and to pass along what he had said. In front of the entire group, he also welcomed my participation on behalf of the administration in these talks, a sign of the trust I enjoyed with the Chinese.

As tensions grew, Schwarzman traveled to China 8 times for Trump.

In the meantime, the White House was ratcheting up its rhetoric, threatening higher tariffs and investigations into Chinese trade practices. China's concerns about a trade war began to grow. Given that the president trusted me, he asked that I continue to be involved by being candid with the Chinese as to the US position. I made eight trips to China in 2018 alone on behalf of the administration, trying to assure China's most senior officials that the president was not looking for a trade war.

Schwarzman guided Xi on how to cut a deal with Trump.

He should not assume the Americans would come to a meeting with President Xi prepared with a list of demands. I thought that President Xi should come with his own list, offer five or six substantive proposals, and control the meeting. If our president felt the proposals were compelling and significant enough, he would engage. It was as simple as that. This wasn't the Chinese way, Vice President Wang said, but he liked the idea. Both sides would have a chance to achieve their objectives. This was the way to a deal.

Schwarzman said no to the possibility of a formal role with the Trump White House.

There was little time to talk, but he called again a week later, this time asking if I might consider joining his team. I thanked him and told him I was very happy with my life as it was; I didn't want to disrupt it. He told me he thought I'd say that, but also that he needed to hear directly from America's business leaders as he tried to accelerate the economy.

Schwarzman also advised George H.W. Bush, the 41st president and the father of his former classmate at Yale

In the early 1990s, I was invited to a dinner at the White House. I was between marriages so I took a date, a magazine writer from New York. During the party, I approached President George H. W. Bush, whom I had met years before when he visited his son George W. at Yale. We stepped aside and talked intently for ten minutes. When I walked back to my date, she asked what on earth we had been talking about. Simple, I told her: I had some ideas for him about the ailing US economy, his biggest problem at the time. World leaders are no different from anyone else. If you talk about what's on their mind and have something to offer, they will listen, Democrats, Republicans, princes, or prime ministers.

Although he was critical of President Obama, he stepped in to help with contentious budget negotiations.

"I could really use your help," said the president.

If Democrats and Republicans failed to reach an agreement by January 1, they would trigger a set of automatic decreases in spending and increases in taxes embedded in previous budget agreements that would take the country over the so-called fiscal cliff.

"Are you saying you want to hire me to be your investment banker with no compensation?" I said. He laughed, gave me his private number, and said I could call any time of day or night— though preferably not after 11: 00 p.m. I admired him for reaching out to people outside Washington who might help break the logjam.

Schwarzman came back with a deal, but President Obama rejected it.

We got to what I thought was a fair offer from the Republican side— $1 trillion over ten years, $ 100 billion, or $ 10 billion a year, shy of the tax increases the Democrats wanted. The president wouldn't accept it. I pleaded with him. Ten billion a year was a rounding error in the federal government's $4 trillion annual budget. The Republicans had started these negotiations refusing to raise taxes at all, and now they were proposing $ 1 trillion of additional revenue by raising taxes, closing loopholes, and ending deductions. There was room here for a deal, but not much, and the window would likely slam shut if the Democrats continued to balk."

You might know about deal making, the president told me, but he knew politics— a fair point from a man fresh from winning his second presidential term. He did not want to start this second term spending precious political capital by pushing a deal he knew he couldn't get his own party to support.