Kyle: Going from a sudden shot of beatific Pedro Pascal at the end of the last episode to a semi-related flashback with a young Joel Miller and his brother was certainly a choice. I almost respect how overtly they are just screwing with audience expectations here.

As for the opening flashback scene itself, I guess the message is "Hey, look at the generational trauma his family was dealing with—isn't it great he overcame that to love Ellie?" But I'm not sure I can draw a straight line from "he got beat by his dad" to "he condemned the entire human race for his surrogate daughter."

Andrew: I do not have the same problems you did with either the Joel pop-in at the end of the last episode or the flashback at the start of this episode—last week, the show was signaling "here comes Joel!" and this week the show is signaling "look, it's Joel!" Maybe I'm just responding to Tony Dalton as Joel's dad, who I know best as the charismatic lunatic Lalo Salamanca from Better Call Saul. I do agree that the throughline between these two events is shaky, though, and without the flashback to fill us in, the "I hope you can do a little better than me" sentiment feels like something way out of left field.

But I dunno, it's Joel week. Joel's back! This is the Duality of Joel: you can simultaneously think that he is horrible for failing a civilization-scale trolley problem when he killed a building full of Fireflies to save Ellie, and you can't help but be utterly charmed by Pedro Pascal enthusiastically describing the many ways to use a Dremel. (He's right! It's a versatile tool!)

Truly, there's pretty much nothing in this episode that we couldn't have inferred or guessed at based on the information the show has already made available to us. And I say this as a non-game-player—I didn't need to see exactly how their relationship became as strained as it was by the beginning of the season to have some idea of why it happened, nor did I need to see The Porch Scene to understand that their bond nevertheless endured. But this is also the dynamic that everybody came to the show for last season, so I can only make myself complain about it to a point.

Kyle: It's true, Joel Week is a time worth celebrating. If I'm coming across as cranky about it at the outset, it's probably because this whole episode is a realization of what we're missing out on this season thanks to Joel's death.

As you said, a lot of this episode was filling in gaps that could well have been inferred from events we did see. But I would have easily taken a full season (or a full second game) of Ellie growing up and Joel dealing with Ellie growing up. You could throw in some zombie attacks or an overarching Big Bad enemy or something if you want, but the development of Joel and Ellie's relationship deserves more than just some condensed flashbacks.

Andrew: Yeah, it's hard not to be upset about the original sin of The Last of Us Part 2 which is (assuming it's like the show) that having some boring underbaked villain crawl out of the woodwork to kill the show's main character is kind of a cheap shot. Sure, you shock the hell out of viewers like me who didn't see it coming! But part of the reason I didn't see it coming is because if you kill Joel, you need to do a whole bunch of your show without Joel and why on Earth would you decide to do that?

To be clear, I don't mind this season so much, and I've found things to like about it, though Ellie does sometimes veer into being a protagonist so short-sighted and impulsive and occasionally just-plain-stupid that it's hard to be in her corner. But yeah, flashing back to a time just two months after the end of season 1 really does make you wonder, "Why couldn't the story just be this?"

Kyle: In the gaming space, I understand the desire to not have your sequel game be just "more of the same" from the last game. But I've always felt The Last of Us Part 2 veered too hard in the other direction and became something almost entirely unrecognizable from the original game I loved.

But let's focus on what we do get in this episode, which is an able recreation of my favorite moment from the second game, Ellie enjoying the heck out of a ruined science museum. The childlike wonder she shows here is a great respite from a lot of action-heavy scenes in the game, and I think it serves the same purpose here. It's also much more drawn out in the game—I could have luxuriated in just this part of the flashback for an entire episode!

Andrew: The only thing that kept me from being fully on board with that scene was that I think Ellie was acting quite a bit younger than 16, with her pantomimed launch noises and flipping of switches, But I could believe that a kid who had such a rough and abbreviated childhood would have some fun sitting in an Apollo module. For someone with no memories of the pre-outbreak society, it must seem like science fiction, and the show gives us some lovely visuals to go with it.

The things I like best here are the little moments in between scenes rather than the parts where the show insists on showing us events that it had already alluded to in other episodes. What sticks with me the most, as we jump between Ellie's birthdays, is Joel's insistence that "we could do this kind of thing more often" as they go to a museum or patrol the trails together. That it needs to be stated multiple times suggests that they are not, in fact, doing this kind of thing more often in between birthdays.

Joel is thoughtful and attentive in his way—a little better than his father—but it's such a bittersweet little note, a surrogate dad's clumsy effort to bridge a gap that he knows is there but doesn't fully understand.

Kyle: Yeah, I'm OK with a little arrested development in a girl that has been forced to miss so many of the markers of a "normal" pre-apocalypse childhood.

But yeah, Joel is pretty clumsy about this. And as we see all of these attempts with his surrogate daughter, it's easy to forget what happened to his real daughter way back at the beginning of the first season. The trauma of that event shapes Joel in a way that I feel the narrative sometimes forgets about for long stretches.

But then we get moments like Joel leading Gail's newly infected husband to a death that the poor guy would very much like to delay by an hour for one final moment with his wife. When Joel says that you can always close your eyes and see the face of the one you love, he may have been thinking about Ellie. But I like to think he was thinking about his actual daughter.

Andrew: Yes to the extent that Joel's actions are relatable (I won't say "excusable," but "relatable") it's because the undercurrent of his relationship with Ellie is that he can't watch another daughter die in his arms. I watched the first episode again recently, and that whole scene remains a masterfully executed gut-punch.

But it's a tough tightrope to walk, because if the story spends too much time focusing on it, you draw attention to how unhealthy it is for Joel to be forcing Ellie to play that role in his life. Don't get me wrong, Ellie was looking for a father figure, too, and that's why it works! It's a "found family" dynamic that they were both looking for. But I can't hear Joel's soothing "baby girl" epithet without it rubbing me the wrong way a little.

My gut reaction was that it was right for Joel not to fully trust Gail's husband, but then I realized I can never not suspect Joe Pantoliano of treachery because of his role as betrayer in the 26-year-old movie The Matrix. Brains are weird.

Kyle: I did like the way Ellie tells Joel off for lying to her (and to Gail) about the killing; it's a real "growing up" moment for the character. And of course it transitions well into The Porch Scene, Ellie's ultimate moment of confronting Joel on his ultimate betrayal.

While I'm not a fan of the head-fake "this scene isn't going to happen" thing they did earlier this season. I think the TV show once again did justice to one of the most impactful parts of the game. But the game also managed to spread out these Joel-centric flashbacks a little more, so we're not transitioning from "museum fun" to "porch confrontation" quite so quickly. Here, it feels like they're trying hard to rush through all of their "bring back Pedro Pascal" requirements in a single episode.

Andrew: Yeah, because you don't need to pay a 3D model's appearance fees if you want to use it in a bunch of scenes of your video game. Pedro Pascal has other stuff going on!

Kyle: That's probably part of it. But without giving too much away, I think we're seeing the limits of stretching the events of "Part 2" into what is essentially two seasons. While there have been some cuts, on the whole, it feels like there's also been a lot of filler to "round out" these characters in ways that have been more harmful than helpful at points.

Andrew: Yeah, our episode ends by depositing us back in the main action, as Ellie returns to the abandoned theater where she and Dina have holed up. I'm curious to see what we're in for in this last run of almost-certainly-Joel-less episodes, but I suspect it involves a bunch of non-Joel characters ping-ponging between the WLF forces and the local cultists. There will probably be some villain monologuing, probably some zombie hordes, probably another named character death or two. Pretty standard issue.

What I don't expect is for anyone to lovingly and accurately describe the process of refurbishing a guitar. And that's the other issue with putting this episode where it is—just as you're getting used to a show without Joel, you're reminded that he's missing all over again.

Andrew: We're five episodes into this season of The Last of Us, and most of the infected we've seen have still been of the "mindless, screeching horde" variety. But in the first episode of the season, we saw Ellie encounter a single "smart" infected person, a creature that retained some sense of strategy and a self-preservation instinct. It implied that the show's monsters were not done evolving and that the seemingly stable fragments of civilization that had managed to take root were founded on a whole bunch of incorrect assumptions about what these monsters were and what they could do.

Amidst all the human-created drama, the changing nature of the Mushroom Zombie Apocalypse is the backdrop of this week's entire episode, starting and ending with the revelation that a 2003-vintage cordyceps nest has become a hotbed of airborne spores, ready to infect humans with no biting required.

This is news to me, as a Non-Game Player! But Kyle, I'm assuming this is another shoe that you knew the series was going to drop.

Kyle: Actually, no. I suppose it's possible I'm forgetting something, but I think the "some infected are actually pretty smart now" storyline is completely new to the show. It's just one of myriad ways the show has diverged enough from the games at this point that I legitimately don't know where it's going to go or how it's going to get there at any given moment, which is equal parts fun and frustrating.

I will say that the "smart zombies" made for my first real "How are Ellie and Dina going to get out of this one?" moment, as Dina's improvised cage was being actively torn apart by a smart and strong infected. But then, lo and behold, here came Deus Ex Jesse to save things with a timely re-entrance into the storyline proper. You had to know we hadn't seen the last of him, right?

Andrew: As with last week's subway chase, I'm coming to expect that any time Ellie and Dina seem to be truly cornered, some other entity is going to swoop down and "save" them at the last minute. This week it was an actual ally instead of another enemy that just happened to take out the people chasing Ellie and Dina. But it's the same basic narrative fake-out.

I assume their luck will run out at some point, but I also suspect that if it comes, that point will be a bit closer to the season finale.

Kyle: Without spoiling anything from the games, I will say you can expect both Ellie and Dina to experience their fair share of lucky and unlucky moments in the episodes to come.

Speaking of unlucky moments, while our favorite duo is hiding in the park we get to see how the local cultists treat captured WLF members, and it is extremely not pretty. I'm repeating myself a bit from last week, but the lingering on these moments of torture feels somehow more gratuitous in an HBO show, even when compared to similarly gory scenes in the games.

Andrew: Well we had just heard these cultists compared to "Amish people" not long before, and we already know they don't have tanks or machine guns or any of the other Standard Issue The Last of Us Paramilitary Goon gear that most other people have, so I guess you've got to do something to make sure the audience can actually take the cultists seriously as a threat. But yeah, if you're squeamish about blood-and-guts stuff, this one's hard to watch.

I do find myself becoming more of a fan of Dina and Ellie's relationship, or at least of Dina as a character. Sure, her tragic backstory's a bit trite (she defuses this criticism by pointing out in advance that it is trite), but she's smart, she can handle herself, she is a good counterweight to Ellie's rush-in-shooting impulses. They are still, as Dina points out, doing something stupid and reckless. But I am at least rooting for them to make it out alive!

Kyle: Personality wise the Dina/Ellie pairing has just as many charms as the Joel/Ellie pairing from last season. But while I always felt like Joel and Ellie had a clear motivation and end goal driving them forward, the thirst for revenge pushing Dina and Ellie deeper into Seattle starts to feel less and less relevant the more time goes on.

The show seems to realize this, too, stopping multiple times since Joel's death to kind of interrogate whether tracking down these killers is worth it when the alternative is just going back to Jackson and prepping for a coming baby. It's like the writers are trying to convince themselves even as they're trying (and somewhat failing, in my opinion) to convince the audience of their just and worthy cause.

Andrew: Yeah, I did notice the points where Our Heroes paused to ask "are we sure we want to be doing this?" And obviously, they are going to keep doing this, because we have spent all this time setting up all these different warring factions and we're going to use them, dang it!! But this has never been a thing that was going to bring Joel back, and it only seems like it can end in misery, especially because I assume Jesse's plot armor is not as thick as Ellie or Dina's.

Kyle: Personally I think the "Ellie and Dina give up on revenge and prepare to start a post-apocalyptic family (while holding off zombies)" would have been a brave and interesting direction for a TV show. It would have been even braver for the game, although very difficult for a franchise where the main verbs are "shoot" and "stab."

Andrew: Yeah if The Last of Us Part II had been a city-building simulator where you swap back and forth between managing the economy of a large town and building defenses to keep out the hordes, fans of the first game might have been put off. But as an Adventure of Link fan I say: bring on the sequels with few-if-any gameplay similarities to their predecessors!

Kyle: "We killed Joel" team member Nora definitely would have preferred if Ellie and Dina were playing that more domestic kind of game. As it stands, Ellie ends up pursuing her toward a miserable-looking death in a cordyceps-infested basement.

The chase scene leading up to this mirrors a very similar one in the game in a lot of ways. But while I found it easy to suspend my disbelief for the (very scripted) chase on the PlayStation, watching it in a TV show made me throw up my hands and say "come on, these heavily armed soldiers can't stop a little girl that's making this much ruckus?"

Andrew: Yeah Jesse can pop half a dozen "smart" zombies in half a dozen shots, but when it's a girl with a giant backpack running down an open hallway everyone suddenly has Star Wars Stormtrooper aim. The visuals of the cordyceps den, with the fungified guys breathing out giant clouds of toxic spores, is effective in its unsettling-ness, at least!

This episode's other revelation is that what Joel did to the Fireflies in the hospital at the end of last season is apparently not news to Ellie, when she hears it from Nora in the episode's final moments. It could be that Ellie, Noted Liar, is lying about knowing this. But Ellie is also totally incapable of controlling her emotions, and I've got to think that if she had been surprised by this, we would have been able to tell.

Kyle: Yeah, saying too much about what Ellie knows and when would be risking some major spoilers. For now I'll just say the way the show decided to mix things up by putting this detailed information in Nora's desperate, spore-infested mouth kind of landed with a wet thud for me.

I was equally perplexed by the sudden jump cut from "Ellie torturing a prisoner" to "peaceful young Ellie flashback" at the end of the episode. Is the audience supposed to assume that this is what is going on inside Ellie's head or something? Or is the narrative just shifting without a clutch?

Andrew: I took it to mean that we were about to get a timeline-breaking departure episode next week, one where we spend some time in flashback mode filling in what Ellie knows and why before we continue on with Abby Quest. But I guess we'll see, won't we!

Kyle: Oh, I've been waiting with bated breath for a bevy of flashbacks I knew were coming in some form or another. But the particular way they shifted to the flashback here, with mere seconds left in this particular brutal episode, was baffling to me.

Andrew: I think you do it that way to get people hyped about the possibility of seeing Joel again next week. Unless it's just a cruel tease! But it's probably not, right? Unless it is!

Kyle: Now I kind of hope the next episode just goes back to Ellie and Dina and doesn't address the five seconds of flashback at all. Screw you, audience!

Kyle: We start this episode from the perspective of a band of highly armed FEDRA agents in 2018 Seattle, shooting the shit in a transport that somehow still has usable gasoline. Maybe it's just the political moment we're in, but I was not quite emotionally prepared for these militarized characters in my post-apocalyptic escape show to start casually using "voters" as an ironic signifier for regular people.

"LOL, like we'd ever let them vote, amirite?"

Andrew: We've spent so little time with FEDRA—the post-collapse remnant of what had once been the US government—since the very opening episodes of the show that you can forget exactly why nearly every other individual and organization in the show's world hates it and wants nothing to do with it. But here's a reminder for us: casual cruelty, performed by ignorant fascists.

Of course as soon as you see and hear Jeffrey Wright, you know he's going to be A Guy (he's an HBO alum from Boardwalk Empire and Westworld, among many, many other film, TV, vocal, and stage performances). He just as casually betrays and blows up the transport full of jumped-up FEDRA jarheads, which is a clear prestige TV storytelling signifier. Here is a Man With A Code, but also a Man To Be Feared.

Kyle: Yeah, Isaac's backstory was only broadly hinted at in the games, so getting to see this big "Who This Character Is" moment in the show was pretty effective.

What I found less effective was Ellie playing a very able A-Ha cover when she discovers the abandoned guitar room. In the game it serves as a welcome change of pace from a lot of frenetic action, and a good excuse for an endearing guitar-playing mini-game. Here it felt like it just kind of dragged on, with a lot of awkward dwelling on close-ups of Dina's creepily enamored face.

Andrew: You know what, though, I do appreciate that the show at least made an effort to explain why this 30-year-old guitar was still in pristine condition. I don't instantly buy that the silica gel packets (which Ellie, wisely, does not eat) in the guitar case would have lasted for that long, but at least she didn't pull a mossy guitar straight off the wall and start tuning it up. Those strings are gonna corrode! That neck is gonna warp!

I do also think the show (and the game, I guess, picking up your context clues) got away with picking one of the goofiest songs they possibly could that would still read as "soulful and emotionally resonant" when played solo on acoustic guitar. But I suppose that's always been the power of that particular instrument.

Kyle: Both the game and the show have leaned heavily on the '80s nostalgia that Joel passed on to Ellie, and as a child of the '80s, I'll be damned if I said it doesn't work on me on that level.

Andrew: It's also, for what it's worth, exactly what a beginner-to-intermediate guitar player is going to know how to do. If I find a guitar during an apocalypse, all people are going to be able to get out of me are mid-2000s radio singles with easy chord progressions. It's too bad that society didn't last long enough in this reality to produce "Boulevard of Broken Dreams."

Kyle: Not to cut short "Guitar Talk," but the show cuts it off with a creepy scene of Isaac talking about high-end cookware to an initially unseen companion on the floor. The resulting scene of torture is, for my money, way worse than most anything we're exposed to in the games—and these are games that are not exactly squeamish about showing scenes of torture and extreme violence!

Felt to me like they're taking advantage of HBO's reputation for graphic content just because they could, here...

Andrew: Definitely gratuitous! But not totally without storytelling utility. I do think, if you're setting Isaac up to be a mid-season miniboss on the road to the Dramatic Confrontation with Abby, that you've got to make it especially clear that he is capable of really nasty things. Sure, killing a truckful of guys is ALSO bad, but they were guys that we as viewers are all supposed to hate. Torturing a defenseless man reinforces the perception of him as someone that Ellie and Dina do not want to meet, especially now that they've popped a couple of his guys.

Because Ellie and Dina have unwittingly wandered into the middle of a Seattle civil war of sorts, between Isaac and his militarized WLF members and the face-cutting cultists we briefly met in the middle of last episode. And while the WLF types do seem to have the cult outgunned, we are told here that WLF members are slowly defecting to the cult (rather than the other way around).

Kyle: I will say I appreciated the surprisingly cogent history of the "chicken and egg games" beef between the two factions, as discussed between torturer and torture victim. Definitely a memorable bit of world-building.

But then we're quickly back to the kind of infected attack scene that now seems practically contractually obligated to happen at least once an episode. At this point, I think these kinds of massive setpiece zombie battles would work better as a light seasoning than a thick sauce that just gets dumped on us almost every week.

Andrew: People in and from Seattle seem to have a unique gift for kicking up otherwise dormant swarms of infected! I know we'll get back to it eventually, but I was more intrigued by the first episode's reveal of more strategic infected that seemed to be retaining more of their human traits than I am by these screaming mindless hordes. Here, I think the tension is also ratcheted up artificially by Ellie's weird escape strategy, which is to lead the two of them through a series of dead ends and cul-de-sacs before finally, barely, getting away.

But like you said, gotta have zombies on the zombie show! And it does finally make the "Dina finds out that Ellie is immune" shoe drop, though Dina doesn't seem ready to think through any of the other implications of that reveal just yet. She has her own stuff going on!

Kyle: Yes, I've had to resist my inclination to do the remote equivalent of nudging you in the ribs to see if you had picked up on the potential "morning sickness" explanation of Dina's frequent vomiting (which was hidden decently amid the "vomiting because of seeing horrifying gore" explanation).

Andrew: It does explain a couple of things! It does seem like a bit of a narrative shortcut to make Ellie extremely invested in Dina and whether she lives or dies, and given this show I am worried that this zygote is only going to be used to create more trauma for Ellie, rather than giving us a nuanced look at parenting during an apocalypse. But it is sweet to see how enthusiastically and immediately Ellie gets invested.

A question for you, while spoiling as little as you can: Are we still mostly just adapting the game at this point? You'd mentioned getting more Isaac backstory (sometimes the show expands on backstories well and sometimes it doesn't), and some things have happened a bit out of order. But my impression is that we haven't gotten a full departure a la the Nick Offerman episode from last season yet.

Kyle: At this point it's kind of like a jazz riff on what happens in the game, with some bits copied note for note, some remixed and thrown into entirely different temporal locations, and some fresh new improv thrown in for good measure.

I'm definitely not a "the game is canon and you must interpret it literally" type of person, but the loose treatment is giving me a bit of whiplash. The reveal of Dina's pregnancy, for instance, is not greeted with nearly as much immediate joy in the games. That said, the moment of joy Ellie and Dina do share here feels transplanted (in tone if nothing else) from an earlier game scene that the show had mostly skipped thus far. It's like free association, man. Dig it!

The show also spends an inordinate amount of time discussing how pregnancy tests work in the post-apocalypse, which for me pushed past world-building and into overexplaining. It's OK to just let stuff be sometimes, y'know?

Andrew: It's jazz, man. It's about the zombies you don't kill.

However it's been rearranged, I can still tell I'm watching a video game adaptation, because there are stealth kills and because important information is conveyed via messages and logos scrawled in blood on the walls. But I am still enjoying myself, and doing slightly less minute-to-minute missing of Joel than I did last episode. Slightly.

The episode ends with Ellie and Dina hearing the name of someone who has the same name as someone who knew Abby over a WLF walkie-talkie they nabbed, which gives them their next objective marker for Abby Quest. But they've got to cross an active war zone to get where they're going (though I couldn't tell from that distance whether we're meant to be able to tell exactly who is fighting who at the moment). Guess I'll have to wait and see!

Kyle: Personally, I'm hoping we see the moment where the newly out-and-proud bisexual Dina finally realizes "what's the deal with all the rainbows." Show your post-apocalyptic pride, girl!